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TOPIC: Flexor problems

Re: Flexor problems 07 May 2012 02:57 #16

  • Rick Burten
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Mark,

My one concern is with the hooves being bandaged for the time frame indicated, their development might be stunted. I know that with the Dalric cuffs, the cuffs are left in place for a period of time and then removed for a period of time to allow the hooves some 'recovery time'. Then repeat as necessary. I wonder if the same might be applicable in this case? It might be a good idea for the owners to consult with Dr. Redden to get a different POV/advice.
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
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Re: Flexor problems 07 May 2012 04:24 #17

  • Mark_Gough
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Rick Burten wrote:
Mark,

My one concern is with the hooves being bandaged for the time frame indicated, their development might be stunted. I know that with the Dalric cuffs, the cuffs are left in place for a period of time and then removed for a period of time to allow the hooves some 'recovery time'. Then repeat as necessary. I wonder if the same might be applicable in this case? It might be a good idea for the owners to consult with Dr. Redden to get a different POV/advice.

Rick, I think that's a legitimate concern and the reason behind my suggestion the package be changed with some frequency. After removing the original package I did find the hooves had grown, both in width and length. I built new "shoes" to accommodate that increase in size. I also added length to the heel extensions.

It was my thought that we'd go this second session then give the foal a break for a week or two and see how she goes.

I'd be more than happy to share the case with Dr. Redden but am concerned he would require a consultation fee beyond the owner's financial constraints. She's already got several thousand in vet costs plus my fees. I'll drop Dr. Redden a note and see what interest he might have and what, if any, fee he would require to evaluate the case.

Cheers,
Mark
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Re: Flexor problems 08 May 2012 10:54 #18

  • DeniseMc
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I did find the hooves had grown, both in width and length. I built new "shoes" to accommodate that increase in size.

Taking this off-topic a bit-- But-- if you are seeing an increase in width, not because of flaring--but because of the growth of the foal, does that contradict what is tradionally taught about hoof growth-ie that growth orignates strictly from the coronet? How does the hoof capsule increase in width over it's entire length in such a short time to accomodate the growing coffin bone?. Is it the inner tubular horn that is responsible for the increase in width? And if that is so, why do folks believe that adding supplements to a diet takes 9-12 months or so to improve hoof health (ie till a new hood capsule is grown?) if the inner tubular horn is constantly produced by horn tubules further down than hoof than just at the coronet?
Denise
Last Edit: 08 May 2012 10:55 by DeniseMc.
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Re: Flexor problems 08 May 2012 15:16 #19

  • Jack Evers
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How does the hoof capsule increase in width over it's entire length in such a short time to accommodate the growing coffin bone?.

I think a number of things happen that are unique in foals. First a foal of that age will grow a new hoof capsule in a few weeks. I can even supply pics of one doing it. At the heel it would be a couple of weeks, so as the coffin bone grows and pushes the wall outward it may push the heels forward a bit but that would quickly be compensated by heel growth.
if the inner tubular horn is constantly produced by horn tubules further down than hoof than just at the coronet?

Long time ago, but I remember a paper where radio-opaque material was introduced into the hoof wall and radiography showed the inner wall growing much faster than the outer. I also recall papers showing what you have stated above,ie that growth does not originate strictly from the coronet so I'm in agreement that even on a mature horse you do not have to grow an entire new capsule to see improvement.
Jack Evers CJF AFA#426

The best things about the good old days -- I wasn't good and I wasn't old.

The older I get, the more horses I shoe, the fewer things that I can absolutely, positively fix.
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Re: Flexor problems 08 May 2012 16:20 #20

  • Mark_Gough
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I agree with Jack. In babies, the growth of P3 is going to quickly change the hoof capsule. Mind you, the growth that necessitated I make new shoes wasn't a lot but I felt it important to stay ahead of that growth to avoid the problems that Rick described in an earlier post.

Cheers,
Mark
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Re: Flexor problems 08 May 2012 17:08 #21

  • DeniseMc
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First a foal of that age will grow a new hoof capsule in a few weeks. I can even supply pics of one doing it
.

Hi Jack,
I'd like to see the photos. I've seen foals that are 9 months old with the "coronary sulcus" at the toe just hitting the ground. (I heard that term used to describe the demarcation that occurs between the newborn's hoof and the subsequent growth once the foal is weightbearing). If the hoof was regrown within a few weeks of birth that demarcation line should be long gone.
Denise
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Re: Flexor problems 08 May 2012 21:38 #22

Denise,

If the hoof only grew from the coronary band, how could it be wider at the bottom than at the top? I think the idea that it grows only from the coronary band has been disproved.

Regards
Rick Shepherd

Although we know what we believe, we may only believe what we know. Dr William Moyers
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Re: Flexor problems 08 May 2012 21:59 #23

  • DeniseMc
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how could it be wider at the bottom than at the top

How can these lines be parallel if it's wider at the bottom than the top? (This is a Tom Bloomer diagram posted somewhere some time ago)

hoofsurfzerogauss.jpg
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Re: Flexor problems 08 May 2012 23:09 #24

It's an illusion. Look at where the top line and bottom line end. It's not a good representation of the hoof. ( I know the heel ends forward of the CB in a hoof ). But, measure the CB and the bottom of the hoof. Or better yet, shape a shoe to fit the foot, then slide it down the pastern to the CB. You could use the hoof "ring" you trim off for the same purpose. You will see that the bottom of the hoof is longer heel to heel than the top.

There is also evidence that new hoof growth takes place below the CB. ( I just don't feel like looking it up right now, maybe later.

I could be wrong - Especially in unusual cases. Club feet come to mind. ;)

:pc:

Regards
Rick Shepherd

Although we know what we believe, we may only believe what we know. Dr William Moyers
Last Edit: 08 May 2012 23:09 by Western Hill Forge.
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Re: Flexor problems 09 May 2012 00:47 #25

  • DeniseMc
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Rick,
Not argueing the hoof isn't wider at the bottom than the top-(just threw in that last illustration just for the heck of it).
Just curious what others thought about how the foal hoof gets wider as it matures.
Denise
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Re: Flexor problems 09 May 2012 10:53 #26

  • Rick Burten
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DeniseMc wrote:
Rick,
Just curious what others thought about how the foal hoof gets wider as it matures.
Denise
Perhaps in the same manner a child's fingernail gets wider as the child matures?
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
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Re: Flexor problems 09 May 2012 11:09 #27

  • Christos Axis
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If you connect the ends of this strip or otherwise keep them parallel to eachother, there is of course no way the bottom can be wider than the top line***. But the ends of the strip, the ends of the wall at the heels are not parallel to eachother. They open towards the ground, therefore making it possible for the bottom to be wider.

Whether that occurs in the foal from ground pressure, development of the cartilages and frog or for other reasons I do not know, but it is these ends coming out of parallel that makes the bottom wider.

***There is a way, as in the case of some secerely overgrown and underrun heels where the ends of the wall while still parallel to eachother are crushed under the hoof pusing the heel quarters out in a distorted fashion. But this is distortion, not the normal balanced expansion of the width I think we are discussing here.
Christos Axis
Last Edit: 09 May 2012 12:02 by Christos Axis.
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Re: Flexor problems 09 May 2012 20:34 #28

  • Jack Evers
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DeniseMc wrote:
First a foal of that age will grow a new hoof capsule in a few weeks. I can even supply pics of one doing it
.

Hi Jack,
I'd like to see the photos. I've seen foals that are 9 months old with the "coronary sulcus" at the toe just hitting the ground. (I heard that term used to describe the demarcation that occurs between the newborn's hoof and the subsequent growth once the foal is weightbearing). If the hoof was regrown within a few weeks of birth that demarcation line should be long gone.
Denise

This foal was five days old when it slipped out between a gate and the gatepost. Apparently,one of the horses in the pasture stepped an it and tore off most of the lateral wall on the right hind. I have no pictures of the original wound.

Burney Chapman was still alive at the time so I called him, told him what I planned and asked for advice. He said my plan was sound and that I would be surprised at how fast that foot would grow.

I cut a brass plate to protect the bottom of the foot and wired a leather frog pressure pad to it to take stress off the wall. This before we had the good acrylics so I drilled holes in the plate and the medial wall and wired the plate to the foot. Bandaging then held everything in place. The top two pics show the two week result. Growth well down from the coronary is evident as is damage from the bandaging.

I reset the plate at that time, but at four weeks the moisture collecting under the bandage was causing heel collapse and the skin damage was worse. I had some medial wall to work with and was able to apply a "baby-glu" plastic shoe (those were PITA)and get to about six weeks before it came off. A reset got me to the eight week result in the last picture where the hoof is nearly regrown and a larger "baby-glu" placed to let the crushed heels recover. That was the last shoe used.

Long term, the foal was sound for the two or three years he was under my care before being sold.
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Jack Evers CJF AFA#426

The best things about the good old days -- I wasn't good and I wasn't old.

The older I get, the more horses I shoe, the fewer things that I can absolutely, positively fix.
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Re: Flexor problems 10 May 2012 12:35 #29

  • DeniseMc
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I'm not understanding you--did the missing chunk of lateral hoofwall fill in to the level of the medial side in those eight weeks or did the entire hoof essentially double in length during that time with you trimming the medial wall while the lateral wall "caught up"?
Denise
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Re: Flexor problems 10 May 2012 17:26 #30

  • Jack Evers
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It did not fill in, it grew from hairline nearly to the ground in the eight weeks. The most forward part which had the longest distance was not quite to ground in that last pic.
Jack Evers CJF AFA#426

The best things about the good old days -- I wasn't good and I wasn't old.

The older I get, the more horses I shoe, the fewer things that I can absolutely, positively fix.
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