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TOPIC: Negative palmar angle

Re: Negative palmar angle 17 Feb 2012 12:31 #46

  • Rick Burten
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Western Hill Forge wrote:
tbloomer wrote:
Western Hill Forge wrote:
Mr Bloomer, You're kidding, right?

Regards
No kidding. Do you know any farriers that replicate the worst outcome for a hoof produced by nature?

Yes.

Regards
Rick,
No disrespect, but you actually know individuals who call themselves 'farriers' who consciously try to create/replicate a worst case scenario for a hoof based on the 'worst nature can do?"
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


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Re: Negative palmar angle 17 Feb 2012 12:55 #47

Rick Burten wrote:
Western Hill Forge wrote:
tbloomer wrote:
Western Hill Forge wrote:
Mr Bloomer, You're kidding, right?

Regards
No kidding. Do you know any farriers that replicate the worst outcome for a hoof produced by nature?

Yes.

Regards
Rick,
No disrespect, but you actually know individuals who call themselves 'farriers' who consciously try to create/replicate a worst case scenario for a hoof based on the 'worst nature can do?"

Rick, my friend, I don't think their intention is to create a worst case situation, which is in my mind lameness. They do it through ignorance and good intentions.

3-mile, yes, a couple "call" themselves "NB farriers", but one of my best friends is a "NB farrier", trained by Gene O, and he does a fine job. The one thing most of the butchers have in common is that they have a name for their trim - NB, 4 point, mustang, Strasser, natural, Ramey, TFT, performance, etc. The other thing they have in common is a lack of training and an irrational belief that some guru or other has discovered a "secret" to hoof care that no one else knows.

Regards
Rick Shepherd

Although we know what we believe, we may only believe what we know. Dr William Moyers
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Re: Negative palmar angle 17 Feb 2012 13:00 #48

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tbloomer wrote:
3-MILE FARRIER SERVICE wrote:
Must be talking about NB ????
Then there's excessive ignorance regarding NB.
+1.

What is interesting is that you can't pick up a farrier magazine or attend a conference without hearing someone(s) talking about the things that are part and parcel of NB. Now you won't hear them say the words "Natural Balance" but you will hear them talking about reference points on the hoof they use to determine their trim and/or shoeing approach. We hear things like "shoeing around the coffin bone", "a 1/3:2/3 ratio of hoof mass as related to the COA/WPOTH", "the live sole plane", "adequate/proper frog support", etc, almost ad infinatum...... Then we have the appliances that have been developed and brought 'mainstream' that reflect the concepts espoused by those who developed/know/employ the NB paradigm. How many times have we heard or seen presentations that reference Duckett's Dot or Duckett's Bridge? Regardless of the 'history' between Mr. Duckett and Mr. Ovnicek, The convergence between the two of the principles regarding trimming and shoeing is undeniable yet in the same breath, those who would denounce/disrespect NB will laud Mr. Duckett, never realizing that praise for one is, at a minimum, reflective praise for the other, and vice versa(ie: disrespecting one is, at a minimum, reflective disrespect for the other). Is NB without flaws? IMO, hardly. But like any tool in the hands of a skilled craftsman, it has a place and can be used effectively. OTOH, in the hands of a ham fisted butcher who does know or understand the 'how's, why's, when's, where's,' of its use,.................Or, for that matter, in the hands of a highly skilled craftsman who has not done his/her due diligence, the outcome often/usually is much less than desired.............. Of course, philosophically, the same might be said about any protocol employed when trimming and/or shoeing the horse. ymmv :)
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


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Re: Negative palmar angle 17 Feb 2012 13:14 #49

Rick Burten wrote:
tbloomer wrote:
3-MILE FARRIER SERVICE wrote:
Must be talking about NB ????
Then there's excessive ignorance regarding NB.
+1.

What is interesting is that you can't pick up a farrier magazine or attend a conference without hearing someone(s) talking about the things that are part and parcel of NB. Now you won't hear them say the words "Natural Balance" but you will hear them talking about reference points on the hoof they use to determine their trim and/or shoeing approach. We hear things like "shoeing around the coffin bone", "a 1/3:2/3 ratio of hoof mass as related to the COA/WPOTH", "the live sole plane", "adequate/proper frog support", etc, almost ad infinatum...... Then we have the appliances that have been developed and brought 'mainstream' that reflect the concepts espoused by those who developed/know/employ the NB paradigm. How many times have we heard or seen presentations that reference Duckett's Dot or Duckett's Bridge? Regardless of the 'history' between Mr. Duckett and Mr. Ovnicek, The convergence between the two of the principles regarding trimming and shoeing is undeniable yet in the same breath, those who would denounce/disrespect NB will laud Mr. Duckett, never realizing that praise for one is, at a minimum, reflective praise for the other, and vice versa(ie: disrespecting one is, at a minimum, reflective disrespect for the other). Is NB without flaws? IMO, hardly. But like any tool in the hands of a skilled craftsman, it has a place and can be used effectively. OTOH, in the hands of a ham fisted butcher who does know or understand the 'how's, why's, when's, where's,' of its use,.................Or, for that matter, in the hands of a highly skilled craftsman who has not done his/her due diligence, the outcome often/usually is much less than desired.............. Of course, philosophically, the same might be said about any protocol employed when trimming and/or shoeing the horse. ymmv :)

I couldnt agree more .... I use these principle in my everyday work and find that the horses i care for are better for it ... otoh i dont shoe every horse with an nb shoe.. maybe i should start :)
Layne Giesbrecht, CF
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Re: Negative palmar angle 17 Feb 2012 13:20 #50

Rick,

LOL a lot of the "part and parcel" of NB seems to pre-date NB. OTOH, there is absolutely nothing wrong with adopting something that works and using it to your advantage.

Regards
Rick Shepherd

Although we know what we believe, we may only believe what we know. Dr William Moyers
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Re: Negative palmar angle 17 Feb 2012 13:37 #51

Western Hill Forge wrote:
Rick Burten wrote:
Western Hill Forge wrote:
tbloomer wrote:
Western Hill Forge wrote:
Mr Bloomer, You're kidding, right?

Regards
No kidding. Do you know any farriers that replicate the worst outcome for a hoof produced by nature?

Yes.

Regards
Rick,
No disrespect, but you actually know individuals who call themselves 'farriers' who consciously try to create/replicate a worst case scenario for a hoof based on the 'worst nature can do?"

Rick, my friend, I don't think their intention is to create a worst case situation, which is in my mind lameness. They do it through ignorance and good intentions.

3-mile, yes, a couple "call" themselves "NB farriers", but one of my best friends is a "NB farrier", trained by Gene O, and he does a fine job. The one thing most of the butchers have in common is that they have a name for their trim - NB, 4 point, mustang, Strasser, natural, Ramey, TFT, performance, etc. The other thing they have in common is a lack of training and an irrational belief that some guru or other has discovered a "secret" to hoof care that no one else knows.

Regards

I didnt mean to imply you were bashing NB . just the first thing that came to my mind :) It seem ignorance and poor education are part and parcel to the farrier profession..
I guess that is why I wonder why we dont have a better way to educate ourselves.. one issue that comes up is the afa certs.. this to me is just the basics... not an end at all, if a farrier cant shoe a horse to a decent level with a perimeter fit how can he ever decide where to set one back!!
I had a farrier ride with me for a while, as he watched me and the way i fit some horses, he said he thought that setting the shoe back was an easier way to shoe, he had been taught only perimeter fit .. i tried to impart to him that it wasnt just setting the shoe back it was fitting a different shape. on a different note i had a customer that had my shoes reset because of logitics.. and the guy fit the front nb shoes as far forward as he could and dressed the wall back to fit.. as you can imagine that foot was distorted in a single cycle.
Whatever ,, i guess in my area, if i do a new horse it will almost without fail be shod with a st croix lite rim or plain with no mods at all.. maybe shaped a little bit. some of the better guys will use sx7 kercks closed up a bit B)
Layne Giesbrecht, CF
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Re: Negative palmar angle 17 Feb 2012 17:02 #52

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Western Hill Forge wrote:
Rick,
LOL a lot of the "part and parcel" of NB seems to pre-date NB.
I agree. In the beginning, what Gene and NB did for me was to codify many of those things I had been taught/learned. Over time, much was added to those early codifications and in context, have served me and my custom quite well.
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


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Re: Negative palmar angle 17 Feb 2012 17:07 #53

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3-MILE FARRIER SERVICE wrote:
Whatever ,, i guess in my area, if i do a new horse it will almost without fail be shod with a st croix lite rim or plain with no mods at all..
Does this mean that after trimming the foot you reach into a box and pull out a shoe and nail it on? I sure hope I am misreading what you wrote......
maybe shaped a little bit. some of the better guys will use sx7 kercks closed up a bit B)
In my little corner of the world, that is considered 'iron hanging', not 'horseshoeing/farriery'. Again, if I have misunderstood what you wrote, my apologies.
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


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Re: Negative palmar angle 17 Feb 2012 17:44 #54

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Whatever ,, i guess in my area, if i do a new horse it will almost without fail be shod with a st croix lite rim or plain with no mods at all..

Does this mean that after trimming the foot you reach into a box and pull out a shoe and nail it on? I sure hope I am misreading what you wrote......

I would guess, Rick, that he was referring to the shoes it was wearing when he walked up. Not the ones that he applied.
Jack Evers CJF AFA#426

The best things about the good old days -- I wasn't good and I wasn't old.

The older I get, the more horses I shoe, the fewer things that I can absolutely, positively fix.
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Re: Negative palmar angle 17 Feb 2012 18:59 #55

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Western Hill Forge wrote:
. . . .Rick, my friend, I don't think their intention is to create a worst case situation, which is in my mind lameness. They do it through ignorance and good intentions. . .
So you know farriers that intentionally follow protocols developed from horses what were lamed by natural causes?
Tom Bloomer
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Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
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Re: Negative palmar angle 17 Feb 2012 21:14 #56

I don't know if I can make this simple enough for you Mr Bloomer, but here's my last try:

I know farriers that claim to follow protocols developed from "natural horses", whatever that is, and they lame horses on a regular basis. Not every horse, but a good percentage.

Regards
Rick Shepherd

Although we know what we believe, we may only believe what we know. Dr William Moyers
Last Edit: 17 Feb 2012 21:15 by Western Hill Forge.
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Re: Negative palmar angle 18 Feb 2012 01:29 #57

Jack Evers wrote:
Whatever ,, i guess in my area, if i do a new horse it will almost without fail be shod with a st croix lite rim or plain with no mods at all..

Does this mean that after trimming the foot you reach into a box and pull out a shoe and nail it on? I sure hope I am misreading what you wrote......

I would guess, Rick, that he was referring to the shoes it was wearing when he walked up. Not the ones that he applied.


Yes that is exactly what i mean :P sorry if i caused u stress Mr. Rick
Layne Giesbrecht, CF
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Re: Negative palmar angle 18 Feb 2012 02:24 #58

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3-MILE FARRIER SERVICE wrote:
Jack Evers wrote:
Whatever ,, i guess in my area, if i do a new horse it will almost without fail be shod with a st croix lite rim or plain with no mods at all..

Does this mean that after trimming the foot you reach into a box and pull out a shoe and nail it on? I sure hope I am misreading what you wrote......

I would guess, Rick, that he was referring to the shoes it was wearing when he walked up. Not the ones that he applied.


Yes that is exactly what i mean :P sorry if i caused u stress Mr. Rick

Why fault the brand of shoes, that just shows that the crappy farriers you follow behind use a certain brand that you don't like?? I hate diamond shoes but have seen some nice work by real Farriers that used them?? Granted there are too many easy fitting shoes on the market that makes alot of people just lazy now days. I watched a very good friend of mine this morning use a stall jack to bang out a set of shoes for a horse, he did take time to go to his anvil and stand to use the grinder to box the shoe, but as to all the shaping he did it on that stall jack..I am over there with my forge going shaping shoes and almost caught up to him..he did have a two foot head start on me.. B)
"As I see it, winners get the money - while losers talk of "individual goals" and similar stuff." Tom Stovall
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Re: Negative palmar angle 18 Feb 2012 03:36 #59

Gary Hill wrote:
3-MILE FARRIER SERVICE wrote:
Jack Evers wrote:
Whatever ,, i guess in my area, if i do a new horse it will almost without fail be shod with a st croix lite rim or plain with no mods at all..

Does this mean that after trimming the foot you reach into a box and pull out a shoe and nail it on? I sure hope I am misreading what you wrote......

I would guess, Rick, that he was referring to the shoes it was wearing when he walked up. Not the ones that he applied.


Yes that is exactly what i mean :P sorry if i caused u stress Mr. Rick

Why fault the brand of shoes, that just shows that the crappy farriers you follow behind use a certain brand that you don't like?? I hate diamond shoes but have seen some nice work by real Farriers that used them?? Granted there are too many easy fitting shoes on the market that makes alot of people just lazy now days. I watched a very good friend of mine this morning use a stall jack to bang out a set of shoes for a horse, he did take time to go to his anvil and stand to use the grinder to box the shoe, but as to all the shaping he did it on that stall jack..I am over there with my forge going shaping shoes and almost caught up to him..he did have a two foot head start on me.. B)

Yea its not the shoes :) they have their place...
Layne Giesbrecht, CF
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Re: Negative palmar angle 18 Feb 2012 10:56 #60

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Western Hill Forge wrote:
I don't know if I can make this simple enough for you Mr Bloomer, but here's my last try:

I know farriers that claim to follow protocols developed from "natural horses", whatever that is, and they lame horses on a regular basis. Not every horse, but a good percentage.

Regards
That doesn't have anything to do with ". . .replicating the worst outcomes for a hoof that is produce from time to time in nature by unfavorable conditions."

Words mean things.
Tom Bloomer
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Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
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