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TOPIC: Rockers on a low pa

RE:Rockers on a low pa 09 Sep 2011 22:55 #16

  • Eric Russell
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Ronald Aalders wrote:
Not force the foot to increase DDFT pull without anything happening until DDFT pull is high enough to snap the foot over and have heels lift from the ground,

You are starting to confuse me. On one hand you say shoes need to be 50/50 below coa. Now you seem to be saying they need to be 0/50. The job you do seems do work well. What your write on here seems to be severely flawed.

just to see them bang back down and have the foot slap level back into the dirt.

Can you be a little more specific as to what you mean by "bang back down"
When anyone worries about the banana allowing the foot to rock back when landing, why does nobody worry about the "slapping and snapping" of "regular" shoeing?

Rooney has an article on this site explaining the worries about a foot rocking back. You adding a wedge appear to have worries yourself.

When the foot "slaps" the ground the muscles are contracted stabilizing the coffin joint. Why would you want the foot to rock back?
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RE:Rockers on a low pa 09 Sep 2011 23:02 #17

  • Eric Russell
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Ronald Aalders wrote:
This was a laminitic Haflinger pony Rick.


Ronald Aalders

In the second pic, with the arrows going up and down at the feltock, what do they mean? Rooney has an article on this website explaining there is a moment at all joints redirecting force.
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RE:Rockers on a low pa 09 Sep 2011 23:12 #18

  • Eric Russell
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Ronald - if you really believed what you write, wouldn't you take xrays before shoeing a horse and draw your circle around coa and make the roll of your shoe exactly mimic the circle?

What you say and what you do seem to contradict each other. If you want the foot to just roll over you would have to have the shoe follow your circle.

Considering you can't trim what you suggest into a foot, where does that leave your theory?
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RE:Rockers on a low pa 09 Sep 2011 23:14 #19

  • Rick Talbert
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Good informative responses. Correct me if I am wrong but it seems that Sammy and Ronald have a different philosophy about these shoes? (Sammy the only link that I could get to work was the video of the horse trotting. Thank you for downloading that video. Do you have any of a horse moving at a canter).
Rick Talbert
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RE:Rockers on a low pa 09 Sep 2011 23:38 #20

  • Eric Russell
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Rick Talbert wrote:
Good informative responses. Correct me if I am wrong but it seems that Sammy and Ronald have a different philosophy about these shoes? (Sammy the only link that I could get to work was the video of the horse trotting. Thank you for downloading that video. Do you have any of a horse moving at a canter).


If you look at the pics in the first post, draw a line down from the center of the coffin bone (extensor process), it appears the foot rotated forward there and stop rotating when enough leverage made it stop.

Going off the first pic, Ron is suggesting the DDFT will still snap. The only way to stop it from snapping is to make the roll start under coa and continue in the same circle coa is going. If you do what he's suggesting the horse would have to park himself out like a laminitic horse to stop from rolling over.

Otherwise he would have to explain the amount of acceptable tension on the deep flexor for the foot to turn over. Without doing that he shouldn't even be able to say where the exact place to put the banana.
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RE:Rockers on a low pa 10 Sep 2011 01:10 #21

I think what Ron has shown and what Austin has posted are 2 very differant concepts. The way I see it.
Ron, you have the horse loaded in the COA, I can see the use of this type of shoeing. It would seem the horse would brealover in a more normal fashion and possibly load the heel when in motion.
Austin, I can't see what the purpose of what this shoeing is for. It looks like the before photo has the horse loaded on the heel and you can see the breakover under the toe, the after picture the horse is fully loaded on the toe and behind what would be normal break over. Almost appears to have already broken over the toe at a stand still.
I am not saying it is bad because I don't understand why it was done but could you help me understand the reason the horse is now loading at the toe and off the heel completely.
Is he able to use the heel in a normal fashion when in motion? How does he actually break over at the toe on firm footing? Where does he find his center?
Charlie Piccione Sr.
Washington, NJ.
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RE:Rockers on a low pa 10 Sep 2011 01:32 #22

  • Eric Russell
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Charlie Piccione wrote:
Ron, you have the horse loaded in the COA, I can see the use of this type of shoeing. It would seem the horse would brealover in a more normal fashion and possibly load the heel when in motion.

Charlie- what are you talking about? What do you mean the horse is loaded in the coa? What is normal fashion? how is the horse using the heel?

Austin, the after picture the horse is fully loaded on the toe and behind what would be normal break over. Almost appears to have already broken over the toe at a stand still.

What is normal breakover? Because the heel of the shoe is not touching the ground do you think the back of the foot is non weight bearing?

Is he able to use the heel in a normal fashion when in motion? How does he actually break over at the toe on firm footing? Where does he find his center?

What do you mean use the heel in normal fashion? You already said it looks like he's breaking over the toe.
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RE:Rockers on a low pa 10 Sep 2011 01:38 #23

  • brian robertson
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Just becuse you can take a bad moving, crippled "western pleasure" horse and make them move "differently" doesn't necessarily make them sound or pain free. Maybe it's just that the horse can't figure out how to limp wearing that package.
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RE:Rockers on a low pa 10 Sep 2011 01:45 #24

  • Eric Russell
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brian robertson wrote:
Just becuse you can take a bad moving, crippled "western pleasure" horse and make them move "differently" doesn't necessarily make them sound or pain free. Maybe it's just that the horse can't figure out how to limp wearing that package.

Nonsense! Ron has shod World Champions. Obviously that must mean something no? Shoeing Olympic and world champions in my world means nothing but surely in Rons world it must mean something no?
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RE:Rockers on a low pa 10 Sep 2011 01:46 #25

  • Rick Talbert
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brian robertson wrote:
Maybe it's just that the horse can't figure out how to limp wearing that package.

lmao, if I could fool horses into not being able to figure out how to limp I would take that result to the bank. :D Next would be confusing them out of colic.
Rick Talbert
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RE:Rockers on a low pa 10 Sep 2011 01:58 #26

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Rick Talbert wrote:
lmao, if I could fool horses into not being able to figure out how to limp I would take that result to the bank. :D Next would be confusing them out of colic.

Really? add leverage to the toe and/or barshoe. Decrease motion in the coffin joint. It's done all the time.
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RE:Rockers on a low pa 10 Sep 2011 02:01 #27

  • brian robertson
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my reference wasn't towards Ron. It was aimed at Austin's use of Redden's rollers not banana shoes.
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RE:Rockers on a low pa 10 Sep 2011 02:06 #28

  • Rick Talbert
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Eric Russell wrote:
Really? add leverage to the toe and/or barshoe. Decrease motion in the coffin joint. It's done all the time.

guess i have been living under a rock. This could take the place of nuerectomies.
Rick Talbert
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RE:Rockers on a low pa 10 Sep 2011 02:21 #29

  • Eric Russell
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Rick Talbert wrote:
guess i have been living under a rock. This could take the place of nuerectomies.

LOL, now you're taking it to nuerectomies? Is that how you see this thread? As a last step toward neurectomies?
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RE:Rockers on a low pa 10 Sep 2011 02:24 #30

Eric Russell wrote:
Charlie- what are you talking about? What do you mean the horse is loaded in the coa? What is normal fashion? how is the horse using the heel?




What is normal breakover? Because the heel of the shoe is not touching the ground do you think the back of the foot is non weight bearing?


What do you mean use the heel in normal fashion? You already said it looks like he's breaking over the toe.

1. Ron's post has the horse balanced on center, hoof is equaly weighted via shoe and gravity. IMO

2. Normal break over is the transfer of weight from heel to rolling off the toe. The back of this hoof is not weight bearing neither from the shoe nor gravity. IMO How can it be weight bearing?

3. I can't see how the heel could come into play unless the CB went way negative and that would really blow the original intent of the OP.
It looks to me as though the shoe has caused the horse to stand fully weighted on the toe and just behind or just under the tip of the coffin bone. There is nothing Normal about that.

I am not being contrary to the shoeing, I just don't see the use of it. The horse went from heel load to toe load at a stand still. That's what I see.
Charlie Piccione Sr.
Washington, NJ.
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