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TOPIC: Rockers on a low pa

Rockers on a low pa 08 Sep 2011 23:45 #1

  • texfarrier
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here is a horse i did today..they use him in high school rodeo for barrels...one of the big university's near me was shoeing this horse for navicular/heel pain..looks like the pa changed about 4-6 degrees..walked off nice





Austin Russell
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RE:Rockers on a low pa 09 Sep 2011 00:50 #2

  • brian robertson
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Austin, have you been playing with Dr. Sammy?
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RE:Rockers on a low pa 09 Sep 2011 01:40 #3

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brian robertson wrote:
Austin, have you been playing with Dr. Sammy?

yes sir :)
Austin Russell
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RE:Rockers on a low pa 09 Sep 2011 03:10 #4

They look real good.
I have a question that I can't seem to get an answer to about the rockers.
Do they show that most horses prefer to load the toe area of the hoof when at rest, or does it indicate that he is looking for his toe?
I have always been curious about this. Any thoughts?
Charlie Piccione Sr.
Washington, NJ.
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RE:Rockers on a low pa 09 Sep 2011 03:42 #5

  • Rick Talbert
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Charlie Piccione wrote:
They look real good.
I have a question that I can't seem to get an answer to about the rockers.
Do they show that most horses prefer to load the toe area of the hoof when at rest, or does it indicate that he is looking for his toe?
I have always been curious about this. Any thoughts?

This is a good question. I have used a few of these shoes and I have yet to really make up my mind on them. I would also ask, is it really a matter of the horse's preference? Or are we still dictating? I would also like to see some slow motion footage of horses moving at speed with these on. I have a couple horses with these on, and I am not against them, just still have not made my mind up on them.
Rick Talbert
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RE:Rockers on a low pa 09 Sep 2011 10:39 #6

Rick Talbert wrote:
This is a good question. I have used a few of these shoes and I have yet to really make up my mind on them. I would also ask, is it really a matter of the horse's preference? Or are we still dictating? I would also like to see some slow motion footage of horses moving at speed with these on. I have a couple horses with these on, and I am not against them, just still have not made my mind up on them.


Here you go.


Ronald Aalders
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RE:Rockers on a low pa 09 Sep 2011 11:48 #7

  • Rick Burten
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Ron,

Could you share with us a bit about the horse and why you chose that approach. Thanks.
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
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RE:Rockers on a low pa 09 Sep 2011 16:00 #8

  • Travis Morgan
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You know you're rasping too fast when you blue the hoof!

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RE:Rockers on a low pa 09 Sep 2011 17:05 #9

  • Rick Talbert
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Ronald Aalders wrote:
Here you go.


Ronald Aalders

That is a nicely shod hoof, but I am not certain what point your illustrating here. If it is in refererence to my question as to whether the horse or the farrier is "dictating" the palmar angle with this sort of shoeing, I still think the question remains. If we look at the belly of the shoe as a fulcrum, then it seems rather simple, if we move the fulcrum forward or back under the hoof what the response will be. Or we can put the fulcrum directly under the center of balance which it looks like you accomplished in this example (which I also would say is a commendable ability to accomplish consistently and requires a good knowledge and precision in application, so well done) but still.... are we (or you) not dictating? If I conceded the point that the horse is allowed to adjust itself to its preferable position, then IS the example of the well balanced hoof in the photo not expressing that it's preferable position is parallel with the ground (which in that case could have been provided by applying a normal flat shoe)? I think this sort of shoeing does have some merit and can be beneficial to address certain problems, but to play devil's advocate, have we examined the drawbacks? I may only have a problem with the term "Self Adjusting Palmar Angle Shoe" (SAPAS) which I have read in reference to this style of shoeing. I question how much self adjusting (for comfort) is occuring versus simply a reaction to a fulcrum that we are decidedly placing to cause a predictable response. I think the "air wedge" could help horses with heel problems/pain, but in the sound horse what is the benefit of the back half of the shoe not being in contact with the ground? Does the hoof rocker back when loaded at speed? If so, how is this a good thing?
Rick Talbert
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RE:Rockers on a low pa 09 Sep 2011 18:44 #10

  • docsam03
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This a link to my facebook page in which I have some Slo mo video of two navicular horses we shod at Dr. Redden's 201 course last month.

Rope horse severe navicular lesions

Befor rocker rails http://www.facebook.com/#!/photo.php?v=278534708828905&set=vb.100000171330206&type=2&permPage=1

After: http://www.facebook.com/#!/photo.php?v=278536412162068&set=vb.100000171330206&type=2&permPage=1

THis is a western pleasure horse with mild nav changes and trotted off sound after shoes was a 2/5 lame. I did not get a before video on this horse. This may give you some idea of the action of the shoe.

http://www.facebook.com/#!/photo.php?v=278531025495940&set=vb.100000171330206&type=2&permPage=1

This a link to my facebook page in which I have some Slo mo video of two navicular horses we shod at Dr. Redden's 201 course last month.

Rope horse severe navicular lesions

Befor rocker rails http://www.facebook.com/#!/photo.php?v=278534708828905&set=vb.100000171330206&type=2&permPage=1

After: http://www.facebook.com/#!/photo.php?v=278536412162068&set=vb.100000171330206&type=2&permPage=1

THis is a western pleasure horse with mild nav changes and trotted off sound after shoes was a 2/5 lame. I did not get a before video on this horse. This may give you some idea of the action of the shoe.

http://www.facebook.com/#!/photo.php?v=278531025495940&set=vb.100000171330206&type=2&permPage=1

These shoes are aluminum rails that are forged into rocker shape with a rockered heel and toe trim. Change in Palmar angle can be as high 15 degrees if needed to unload forces over navicular area. THe placement of the center of rocker aligned with center of articulation will allow horse to find a comfort zone. If extremely painful in DDFT or any of the structures it has action on the horse may go straight to toe now that he has the option while standing square. In a flat shoe he would just point the toe to unload that pain. There are many benefits from not trapping the ddf in a set palmar angle as we do with flat shoes. The contoured surface of a rocker will allow continual fluid motion through stance phase that unloads nav bone, solar corium below apex of coffin bone and dorsal lamellar interface as well as ddft itself. You must visualize every force and action involved in the interaction of the ddft. What forces are where and what happens when more ddft tension is applied. In flat shoe if you increase ddft tension pressure increases over the nav bursa bone, tension forces in lameller interface increase and compressive forces at tip of p3 increase. In a rocker shoe this does still occur but the forces are minimized as the foot can now "rock up" and change PA versus directly applying all the tendon load or force to the above areas. If you want to increase the mechanical properties you can move the COR closer to heels and create more wedging affect but it will often lock them on there toe and is not much different that a large wedge pad.

It has been a long time coming to wrap my pea brain around this concept and I am still developing my pea brain every day. This approach has great benefits and often I think you must see it to believe it, or just try it on some to evaluate its response. Like any approach it is the application that will make you successful or not.
Sammy L. Pittman, DVM
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RE:Rockers on a low pa 09 Sep 2011 19:42 #11

  • Rick Burten
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First two links don't work.

In the third link(paint horse) why is the horse wearing a bar shoe on the right front and an open heeled version on the left front?

It also appears that the horse is landing/loading heel to toe on the left front and flat on the right front. If that is indeed the case, what are the long term consequences to the hoof of the horse landing on the belly of the shoe and the hoof at that point loading and focally absorbing that impact/loading force? It also appears that the horse does not really engage his heels on the right front. Though it is probably wrong to do so, I am assuming that the right front displayed more heel pain upon examination and the stride alteration, even with the shoe in place is a result of that condition. If that is indeed the case, how is his landing on the belly of the shoe with its attendant force amplification through the hoof, going to aid in his recovery and return to a more normal stride sequence?
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
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RE:Rockers on a low pa 09 Sep 2011 20:12 #12

  • docsam03
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Rick Burten wrote:
First two links don't work.

In the third link(paint horse) why is the horse wearing a bar shoe on the right front and an open heeled version on the left front?

It also appears that the horse is landing/loading heel to toe on the left front and flat on the right front. If that is indeed the case, what are the long term consequences to the hoof of the horse landing on the belly of the shoe and the hoof at that point loading and focally absorbing that impact/loading force? It also appears that the horse does not really engage his heels on the right front. Though it is probably wrong to do so, I am assuming that the right front displayed more heel pain upon examination and the stride alteration, even with the shoe in place is a result of that condition. If that is indeed the case, how is his landing on the belly of the shoe with its attendant force amplification through the hoof, going to aid in his recovery and return to a more normal stride sequence?

I tried the links and it worked for me?? With regards to difference in landings- I think it may be to the difference in the hooves, hi vs low. I think it may be the ability of the horse to selectively land where is comfortable. This is even apparent in flat shoes or barefooted. Note in the first video the RFL landing toe first. This application has the shoe contacting on four points, heel buttress and toe pillars so load is transferred there in many cases. If enough foot present that amount of shoe rocker and hoof rocker trim is similar then I would assume more contact in all areas. Long term I have not realized problems that I would attribute to difference in attendant force amplification. Horse lame place rockers to unload nav lesion, horse sound and usable again. Many other approaches have been tried in many of these cases to no avail. So it is either sound in this shoe and have some quality of performance life or pasture ornament.

The frog plate in the right front.. This is the low foot with less ddft tension hence more bone load versus tendon load and when raising the PA the frog will prolapse. It will not happen as significantly on the more upright of the two feet and is often not needed.

I feel there is much more to pathological shoeing that we need to pay attention too and the most important is the action of the ddft. It has much to do with every disease situation in the hoof. In which case a flat shoe may not always be the only option.
Sammy L. Pittman, DVM
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RE:Rockers on a low pa 09 Sep 2011 22:06 #13

Rick Talbert wrote:
That is a nicely shod hoof, but I am not certain what point your illustrating here. If it is in refererence to my question as to whether the horse or the farrier is "dictating" the palmar angle with this sort of shoeing, I still think the question remains. If we look at the belly of the shoe as a fulcrum, then it seems rather simple, if we move the fulcrum forward or back under the hoof what the response will be. Or we can put the fulcrum directly under the center of balance which it looks like you accomplished in this example (which I also would say is a commendable ability to accomplish consistently and requires a good knowledge and precision in application, so well done) but still.... are we (or you) not dictating? If I conceded the point that the horse is allowed to adjust itself to its preferable position, then IS the example of the well balanced hoof in the photo not expressing that it's preferable position is parallel with the ground (which in that case could have been provided by applying a normal flat shoe)? I think this sort of shoeing does have some merit and can be beneficial to address certain problems, but to play devil's advocate, have we examined the drawbacks? I may only have a problem with the term "Self Adjusting Palmar Angle Shoe" (SAPAS) which I have read in reference to this style of shoeing. I question how much self adjusting (for comfort) is occuring versus simply a reaction to a fulcrum that we are decidedly placing to cause a predictable response. I think the "air wedge" could help horses with heel problems/pain, but in the sound horse what is the benefit of the back half of the shoe not being in contact with the ground? Does the hoof rocker back when loaded at speed? If so, how is this a good thing?


Lately the "banana shoe" protocol appears to be used by more and more people. In ways I don't always agree to, but if it works for those who use it, fine. Who am I to judge?

I think I can safely say that I have used banana shoes A LOT. In fact, although clearly I did not come up with this idea, by now I seriously doubt if there are many, if any, that have used it more.

IMO a banana is not primarily about raising the PA, a wedge can take care of that. In fact rads showing the PA after application of banana's proof nothing other than dramatically reducing breakover gives DDFT an advantage over the break over lever. But we knew that, we've known that for years, way before a brilliant out of the box guy like Ric Redden promoted the banana shoe.

The way I see the banana shoe, it is a way to guide the foot through the "landing, loading, heel lift and toe leaving the dirt" motion in a smooth way. Not force the foot to increase DDFT pull without anything happening until DDFT pull is high enough to snap the foot over and have heels lift from the ground, just to see them bang back down and have the foot slap level back into the dirt. When anyone worries about the banana allowing the foot to rock back when landing, why does nobody worry about the "slapping and snapping" of "regular" shoeing? Perhaps some day it turns out the biggest advantage of the banana shoe is the ease in the navicular region when the leg is in the retraction phase of the motion.

I said it before and I will again, the banana is a tool, a help. I shod World Champion reining horses with a banana shoe. But I have been succesful with other types of shoes as well. I can honestly not come up with a clear drawback of the banana shoe. I can name several issues that incorrect use of a banana could cause, but I can do that for each and every type of shoeing when done inappropriately.

O, and I don't make a dime if all of the world would start using banana shoes. My experience with them is shared free. There is one (also free) warning though, as soon as anyone starts promoting any type of shoeing as the solution to all podiatry problems, be on your guard.

For those that are looking for risks, drawbacks even of the banana shoe, I can tell you I would strongly advise against using banana shoes without wedges. I would also be reluctant to use them with SDFT issues. The correct positioning of the roll is crucial. Without ways to do that, try other types of shoeing. I have seen vets use the banana shoe in a way that I don't follow. The banana allows a roll underneath the COA. Because of that there is not need to have the foot stick out in front of the shoe big time. Keep the sole-wall junction protected, dorsally also.


Ronald Aalders

p.s. this picture serves only to illustrate retraction of the near fore.
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RE:Rockers on a low pa 09 Sep 2011 22:21 #14

Rick Burten wrote:
Ron,

Could you share with us a bit about the horse and why you chose that approach. Thanks.

This was a laminitic Haflinger pony Rick.


Ronald Aalders
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RE:Rockers on a low pa 09 Sep 2011 22:29 #15

  • texfarrier
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Ronald Aalders wrote:
Lately the "banana shoe" protocol appears to be used by more and more people. In ways I don't always agree to, but if it works for those who use it, fine. Who am I to judge?

I think I can safely say that I have used banana shoes A LOT. In fact, although clearly I did not come up with this idea, by now I seriously doubt if there are many, if any, that have used it more.

IMO a banana is not primarily about raising the PA, a wedge can take care of that. In fact rads showing the PA after application of banana's proof nothing other than dramatically reducing breakover gives DDFT an advantage over the break over lever. But we knew that, we've known that for years, way before a brilliant out of the box guy like Ric Redden promoted the banana shoe.

The way I see the banana shoe, it is a way to guide the foot through the "landing, loading, heel lift and toe leaving the dirt" motion in a smooth way. Not force the foot to increase DDFT pull without anything happening until DDFT pull is high enough to snap the foot over and have heels lift from the ground, just to see them bang back down and have the foot slap level back into the dirt. When anyone worries about the banana allowing the foot to rock back when landing, why does nobody worry about the "slapping and snapping" of "regular" shoeing? Perhaps some day it turns out the biggest advantage of the banana shoe is the ease in the navicular region when the leg is in the retraction phase of the motion.

I said it before and I will again, the banana is a tool, a help. I shod World Champion reining horses with a banana shoe. But I have been succesful with other types of shoes as well. I can honestly not come up with a clear drawback of the banana shoe. I can name several issues that incorrect use of a banana could cause, but I can do that for each and every type of shoeing when done inappropriately.

O, and I don't make a dime if all of the world would start using banana shoes. My experience with them is shared free. There is one (also free) warning though, as soon as anyone starts promoting any type of shoeing as the solution to all podiatry problems, be on your guard.

For those that are looking for risks, drawbacks even of the banana shoe, I can tell you I would strongly advise against using banana shoes without wedges. I would also be reluctant to use them with SDFT issues. The correct positioning of the roll is crucial. Without ways to do that, try other types of shoeing. I have seen vets use the banana shoe in a way that I don't follow. The banana allows a roll underneath the COA. Because of that there is not need to have the foot stick out in front of the shoe big time. Keep the sole-wall junction protected, dorsally also.


Ronald Aalders

p.s. this picture serves only to illustrate retraction of the near fore.

so do you think the horse i shod needs a bigger shoe?....also your saying to use a wedge to protect if the hoof decides to rock back?..thanks ron
Austin Russell
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