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TOPIC: Heel movement in horses: comparison between glued and nailed horse shoes at different

RE:Heel movement in horses: comparison between glued and nailed horse shoes at different 06 Jun 2011 18:11 #61

  • docsam03
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tbloomer wrote:
I'm not accustomed to discussing bone geometry using images taken for soft tissue diagnostics. However I am quite accustomed to seeing vets charge for;
  1. Poorly exposed images containing no useful diagnostic information.
  2. Images with motion blur from hand held generators or hand held film
  3. Images developed in old chemicals.
  4. Images with gross magnification, reduction, or parallax errors.
Then it would seem rather silly to use images taken with these "techniques" to illustrate bone geometry.

As far as I can tell you've been discussing variations in the geometry of P3 and you've posted "examples." As such it is difficult for me to take you seriously as you are now making excuses about your choice of "example" images.

You guys can sure pick apart a man. For me it makes perfect since to evaluate bone geometry with a soft tissue technique as the fine thin edge of p3 is oftent burnt through and you will not get a true representation of its borders. I am not trying to make up excuses just trying explain the reason they may appear underexposed to you yet ideal to someone else.
Sammy L. Pittman, DVM
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RE:Heel movement in horses: comparison between glued and nailed horse shoes at different 06 Jun 2011 18:22 #62

  • docsam03
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Rick Burten wrote:
A pity as this was developing into an interesting discussion.

Or perhaps its that you're finding the cheese a bit binding?

Hmmm, for a seemingly educated man, it would appear that you missed class the day that basic reading for content in context with comprehension was taught.

Thanks for the suggestion Doc. However, it was you who brought the subject to the table for discussion so I would expect that you would be able to engage in a meaningful discussion and substantiate your statements/position. Apparently, my expectations were too lofty. Besides, were I to attend said lecture/demos, It wouldn't be to, as you put it, "satisfy my desires", rather it would be to [hopefully] satisfy my intellectual curiosity and [perhaps] expand my knowledge and understanding. As a man of letters, you do ken the difference don't you?

There you go again with the logical fallacies...... Oh, and even though I don't need it, thanks for your permission.......:rolleyes:

As a gesture of good will, I offer you this bit of advise, Don't bring a knife to a gun fight......;)
I didnt realize this was a fight, but I guess I can appreciate your passion. It just seems more of a personal attack than a contrasting discussion. I did not dream up the aprroaches that I have mentioned and I am not claiming to be the all knowing expert. That is the reason I continue to refer you to the source of my knowledge so you can make your own judgement against or for. I would hate that just because you have not fallen in love with how I have presented it to get in the way of your understanding of the the value of measuring soft tissue parameters and other redden concepts.
Sammy L. Pittman, DVM
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RE:Heel movement in horses: comparison between glued and nailed horse shoes at different 06 Jun 2011 19:42 #63

  • david a hall
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docsam03 wrote:
cuttinshoer;236628 wrote:
Agreed, and I doubt these are oblique


I have looked into that some. I placed dots of green tape on top of spine of scapula, point of shoulder and points on elbow of horses then drastically changed the PA (0-20dg) and took digital photos so i could measure the difference in shoulder angle. I really could not appreciate much change in angle between the two pa's. So answer is I don't know. It really doesnt matter to me because all I can change effectively is the PA and DDFT tension.

You were doing quite well till i read this, is the horse pushing or pulling the cart?Metaphorically of course.
You just keep thinking that you can effect palmer angle and DDFT tension :rolleyes:
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RE:Heel movement in horses: comparison between glued and nailed horse shoes at different 06 Jun 2011 19:55 #64

  • Rick Burten
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docsam03 wrote:
I didnt realize this was a fight,......
Reading Comp 101. To wit: I said "A pity as this was developing into an interesting discussion".
but I guess I can appreciate your passion.
No need to guess.........
It just seems more of a personal attack than a contrasting discussion.
Really? Care to point out where that occurred(other than in my last response
after you took the ad hominem initiative)
I did not dream up the aprroaches that I have mentioned and I am not claiming to be the all knowing expert.
Irrelevant. You stated a position and should be willing and able to 'defend' it. The 'challenges' offered seem to me to be well within the lines of discussion as are the concerns offered regarding the techniques employed and the results obtained.
That is the reason I continue to refer you to the source of my knowledge so you can make your own judgement against or for.
Not really relevant as it is with you that the discussion has unfolded and it is your knowledge/understanding and rationale that is under consideration. It is not for us, the skeptics to do your research, rather, as the 'proponent', it is for you to be able to support that which you proposed. Instead, you offered spucatum tauri such as "Iam sorry but I have not the time to fully debate with cites and references." And, "I dont feel youhave you given adequate reasons for why you disagree." To which I would further add that I was not necessarily always disagreeing with you, but I did ask what seems to me to be some relevant/pertinent questions which led to further obfuscation on your part, which you then compounded with ad hominem when you wrote "You seem quick for oratoric retort and it seems as if it doesnt exist in your world then it must be a lie or incorrect."
I would hate that just because you have not fallen in love with how I have presented it to get in the way of your understanding of the the value of measuring soft tissue parameters and other redden concepts.
Unfortunately, you have yet to demonstrate how the measuring of soft tissue parameters has anything to do with p3 BA or PA. In fact, until you were "called on it" you never even mentioned soft tissue parameters as a measurement technique for determining BA or PA. And since then, have yet to offer a rationale or evidence of how measuring soft tissue parameters is a valid method for determining BA or PA or the like. Further, you yet again have jumped to the [logical fallacy] conclusion that I (and other farriers) don't understand "the value of measuring soft tissue parameters and other redden concepts."

Elsewhere you have stated:
For me it makes perfect since to evaluate bone geometry with a soft tissue technique as the fine thin edge of p3 is oftent burnt through and you will not get a true representation of its borders.
Perhaps you would be good enough to explain how a lateral view rad of p3 can give an true representation of its borders/bone geometry and how a soft tissue technique will give such a representation. As I have repeatedly stated, I am not a radiologist though I have worked with some very good ones as well as with non-radiologist veterinarians and in that brief span of twenty or thirty years, have never had one determine bone geometry(BA, etc) using radiographic soft tissue studies. So, again, I ask, how do soft tissue exposures give a true representation of the borders of p3? And, I note for the record that IME, there are other radiographic views of p3 that do indeed give accurate representations of the borders of p3.
I am not trying to make up excuses just trying explain the reason they may appear underexposed to you yet ideal to someone else.
Which is something you have thus far failed to do.
I would suggest again to attend the tulsa or san antonio lecture/demo of dr reddens and you can satisfy your desires directly from the source. Order the 2010 lecture notes, lot of good info there and there are several free articles on his website, so feel free to educate yourself. http://www.nanric.com/Howtotreatclubfeet.asp
Were I a wag(noun form) and a cynic and prone to the commission of logical fallacies, I would offer, "Physician, heal thyself......". Fortunately, I'm not. :)
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
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RE:Heel movement in horses: comparison between glued and nailed horse shoes at different 06 Jun 2011 20:05 #65

  • Travis Reed
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I was really enjoy the debate so to say...I stayed out due to its above my pay grade at this time but felt I was learning from both sides..so I read and get shut...then to my suprise dr Sam bowed out ...so I had to question does really believe what it is he has stated..or is this something he has read and therfore will not discuss it when hard questions came...because I sure never seen anyone get out of line...maybe some in over there head but sure none out of line...please carry on
Travis Reed.....


www.sporthorsefarrier.com to direct link..
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RE:Heel movement in horses: comparison between glued and nailed horse shoes at different 06 Jun 2011 20:20 #66

  • Rick Burten
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david a hall wrote:
....... is the horse pushing or pulling the cart?Metaphorically of course.
Metaphorically, IMNTBCHO, if the horse is in front of the cart, the horse is pushing into the traces/collar/harness/whatever and as a result, if the direction of travel is meant to be forward, the cart is [indirectly] pulled forward. If the direction of travel is meant to be rearward, then the horse still pushes into the traces/harness but the cart is also [indirectly] pushed rearward(though I suppose that I could also make a case for the cart being [indirectly] pulled rearward.....). ;) :) This 'Ying-Yang' or 'Ying-Ying' effect often requires that, for the observer/s/he who contemplates, the stars in the heavens are all in alignment, that the moon is in the seventh house, Jupiter is aligned with Mars, and the amount of THC in body tissues exceeds 10 micrograms per kilogram of body weight........;)
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
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RE:Heel movement in horses: comparison between glued and nailed horse shoes at different 06 Jun 2011 22:12 #67

  • tbloomer
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docsam03 wrote:
You guys can sure pick apart a man. For me it makes perfect since to evaluate bone geometry with a soft tissue technique as the fine thin edge of p3 is oftent burnt through and you will not get a true representation of its borders. I am not trying to make up excuses just trying explain the reason they may appear underexposed to you yet ideal to someone else.
Man you're killin' me. :rolleyes:
Tom Bloomer
http://blackburnforge.com
302-222-6404


Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
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RE:Heel movement in horses: comparison between glued and nailed horse shoes at different 06 Jun 2011 23:41 #68

Travis Reed wrote:
I was really enjoy the debate so to say...I stayed out due to its above my pay grade at this time but felt I was learning from both sides..so I read and get shut...then to my suprise dr Sam bowed out ...so I had to question does really believe what it is he has stated..or is this something he has read and therfore will not discuss it when hard questions came...because I sure never seen anyone get out of line...maybe some in over there head but sure none out of line...please carry on

What part did you enjoy?
Phil Armitage, CF
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RE:Heel movement in horses: comparison between glued and nailed horse shoes at different 06 Jun 2011 23:53 #69

Rick, I have read this entire thread and at no time has the Doc, implied always, only or never. Why are you using your tactics to tear his information apart? Judging from some of the other posters on here you have successfully muddied the waters. What say you? Please spare me the comprehension of content line. Way over used my friend. :)

Let's keep this simple. Three types of feet Normal, Low and High. I thought the Doc's points were well made and would like to thank him for sharing.
Phil Armitage, CF
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"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:Heel movement in horses: comparison between glued and nailed horse shoes at different 06 Jun 2011 23:55 #70

tbloomer wrote:
Man you're killin' me. :rolleyes:

Why is he killing you?
Phil Armitage, CF
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RE:Heel movement in horses: comparison between glued and nailed horse shoes at different 07 Jun 2011 00:44 #71

  • Rick Burten
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Phil Armitage wrote:
Rick, I have read this entire thread and at no time has the Doc, implied always, only or never.
Who ever said he did?
Why are you using your tactics to tear his information apart?
What tactics might those be? Using the interrogatory? Asking him to substantiate and/or better explain? What? And how would you conduct a discussion such as the one that has evolved here?
Judging from some of the other posters on here you have successfully muddied the waters.
Really? How so?
What say you?
Spucatum Tauri.
Please spare me the comprehension of content line. Way over used my friend. :)
Really? Based on your post, it is not only timely, its accurate.......
Let's keep this simple.
Sorry Phil but I won't d-umb down my end of the discussion because some folks might not be able to follow or comprehend it. Especially since IME, its not all that complicated or difficult to understand.
Three types of feet Normal, Low and High.
Its a bit more complicated than that, Phil.
I thought the Doc's points were well made.....
Which points might those be? Are they factual or hypothesis/theory? In either event, are they to be unquestioningly accepted? Why?
......and would like to thank him for sharing.
Just because there is an interrogative discourse taking place, doesn't mean that his contributions are not welcome or appreciated.

Do you not wonder how the presented radiographs can possibly show a BA/geometry of 65*? If it is clear to you, then perhaps you'll be good enough to share with me and others the clarity of your understanding. Once we get that cleared up, we'll move on to the other areas Doc presented and you can provide your insights into how what he, via Dr. Redden, proposes can actually occur. How many radiographs of p3 or actual harvested p3s have you personally seen that show the bone geometry/conformation such as is proposed by Redden, et al, either in the circumstances under discussion or, generally speaking?
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
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RE:Heel movement in horses: comparison between glued and nailed horse shoes at different 07 Jun 2011 00:46 #72

  • Jay Mickle
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Becoming tedious!
Jay Mickle
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RE:Heel movement in horses: comparison between glued and nailed horse shoes at different 07 Jun 2011 02:20 #73

  • reillyshoe
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Phil Armitage wrote:

Let's keep this simple. Three types of feet Normal, Low and High. I thought the Doc's points were well made and would like to thank him for sharing.

The Doc had more than 3 hoof types, that is the debate (upright and greater than 70 degrees and upright and less than 70 degrees). I would think you either support the Doc's idea of multiple upright hoof types or you disagree with his (Redden's) idea. You seem to be arguing both sides of the argument Phil....

I am not sure what any of this has to do with heel movement, but whatever (?)
P
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RE:Heel movement in horses: comparison between glued and nailed horse shoes at different 07 Jun 2011 02:54 #74

Information on the principles of Radiographs. Most people think x-rays are strictly to view bone. I can see why Rick and Tom are confused if they do not comprehend/understand the technology. This is all above my pay grade, however I'm disapointed that Rick and Tom have suggested Sammy L. Pittman is making excuses when he explains the x-ray was used to outline soft tissue as if they have a total understanding of the technology. I'm sharing this to show x-rays can also be used to show soft tissue. I have seen several digital x-rays that clearly show soft tissue. I can see how the beam can be adjusted in the older equipment so the film will show soft tissue. Hope this helps.

X-radiation (composed of X-rays) is a form of electromagnetic radiation. X-rays have a wavelength in the range of 0.01 to 10 nanometers, corresponding to frequencies in the range 30 petahertz to 30 exahertz (3×1016 Hz to 3×1019 Hz) and energies in the range 120 eV to 120 keV. They are shorter in wavelength than UV rays and longer than gamma rays. In many languages, X-radiation is called Röntgen radiation, after Wilhelm Conrad Röntgen, who is usually credited as its discoverer, and who had named it X-radiation to signify an unknown type of radiation.[1] Recently uncovered archival evidence shows that the original discoverer of X-rays was a Ukrainian physicist Ivan Pulyui, who worked in Vienna together with Röntgen and shared the results of his work with him.[2] Correct spelling of X-ray(s) in the English language includes the variants x-ray(s) and X ray(s).[3] XRAY is used as the phonetic pronunciation for the letter x.

X-rays from about 0.12 to 12 keV (10 to 0.10 nm wavelength) are classified as "soft" X-rays, and from about 12 to 120 keV (0.10 to 0.01 nm wavelength) as "hard" X-rays, due to their penetrating abilities.[4]

Hard X-rays can penetrate solid objects, and their most common use is to take images of the inside of objects in diagnostic radiography and crystallography. As a result, the term X-ray is metonymically used to refer to a radiographic image produced using this method, in addition to the method itself. By contrast, soft X-rays hardly penetrate matter at all; the attenuation length of 600 eV (~2 nm) X-rays in water is less than 1 micrometer.[5]

The distinction between X-rays and gamma rays has changed in recent decades. Originally, the electromagnetic radiation emitted by X-ray tubes had a longer wavelength than the radiation emitted by radioactive nuclei (gamma rays).[6] Older literature distinguished between X- and gamma radiation on the basis of wavelength, with radiation shorter than some arbitrary wavelength, such as 10−11 m, defined as gamma rays.[7] However, as shorter wavelength continuous spectrum "X-ray" sources such as linear accelerators and longer wavelength "gamma ray" emitters were discovered, the wavelength bands largely overlapped. The two types of radiation are now usually distinguished by their origin: X-rays are emitted by electrons outside the nucleus, while gamma rays are emitted by the nucleus.


Radiography is the use of X-rays to view a non uniformly composed material such as the human body. By utilizing the physical properties of the ray an image can be developed displaying clearly, areas of different density and composition.

A heterogeneous beam of X-rays is produced by an X-ray generator and is projected toward an object. According to the density and composition of the different areas of the object a proportion of X-rays are absorbed by the object. The X-rays that pass through are then captured behind the object by a detector (film sensitive to X-rays or a digital detector) which gives a 2D representation of all the structures superimposed on each other. In tomography, the X-ray source and detector move to blur out structures not in the focal plane. Computed tomography (CT scanning) is different to plain film tomography in that computer assisted reconstruction is used to generate a 3D representation of the scanned object/patient.
Phil Armitage, CF
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RE:Heel movement in horses: comparison between glued and nailed horse shoes at different 07 Jun 2011 02:56 #75

reillyshoe wrote:
The Doc had more than 3 hoof types, that is the debate (upright and greater than 70 degrees and upright and less than 70 degrees). I would think you either support the Doc's idea of multiple upright hoof types or you disagree with his (Redden's) idea. You seem to be arguing both sides of the argument Phil....

I am not sure what any of this has to do with heel movement, but whatever (?)

I'm interested in his reasoning to upright feet that dish and do not dish. Not taking sides at all. Any thoughts on this?
Phil Armitage, CF
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