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TOPIC: Heel movement in horses: comparison between glued and nailed horse shoes at different

RE:Heel movement in horses: comparison between glued and nailed horse shoes at different 04 Jun 2011 18:31 #46

  • david a hall
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cuttinshoer wrote:

What about angle of the shoulder rather than muscle contracture?

surely not. :D The DDFM still remains the last refuge of the diognostically challenged. :D
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RE:Heel movement in horses: comparison between glued and nailed horse shoes at different 04 Jun 2011 20:08 #47

  • Rick Burten
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david a hall wrote:
The DDFM still remains the last refuge of the diognostically challenged. :D
I have heard that a diagnosis of 'navicular' is the last refuge of the diagnostically challenged. ;) Regardless, there may indeed be a correlation between the two. :)
Rick Burten PF

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RE:Heel movement in horses: comparison between glued and nailed horse shoes at different 04 Jun 2011 20:11 #48

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Rick Burten wrote:
I have heard that a diagnosis of 'navicular' is the clast refuge of the diagnostically challenged. ;) Regardless, there may indeed be a correlation between the two. :)

It moves proximally as time goes on :)
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RE:Heel movement in horses: comparison between glued and nailed horse shoes at different 05 Jun 2011 11:42 #49

david a hall wrote:
It moves proximally as time goes on :)

What is going on as the palmar process moves distally over time? :)
Phil Armitage, CF
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RE:Heel movement in horses: comparison between glued and nailed horse shoes at different 05 Jun 2011 12:07 #50

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Phil Armitage wrote:
What is going on as the palmar process moves distally over time? :)

Got to be the DDFM couldn't be anything else. All things these days are the DDFM contracture or muscle spasm. :D
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RE:Heel movement in horses: comparison between glued and nailed horse shoes at different 05 Jun 2011 12:46 #51

  • Ray_Knightley
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Leg lengh?:rolleyes:
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RE:Heel movement in horses: comparison between glued and nailed horse shoes at different 05 Jun 2011 12:59 #52

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Ray_Knightley wrote:
Leg lengh?:rolleyes:

Yep there is length in the leg, the bones stop growing in the late teens early 20's and this causes tension in the DDFM. If your not careful the scapular will come through the withers.
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RE:Heel movement in horses: comparison between glued and nailed horse shoes at different 05 Jun 2011 14:24 #53

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david a hall wrote:
Yep there is length in the leg, the bones stop growing in the late teens early 20's and this causes tension in the DDFM. If your not careful the scapular will come through the withers.

No you can stop that with the saddle...:p
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RE:Heel movement in horses: comparison between glued and nailed horse shoes at different 05 Jun 2011 22:10 #54

  • docsam03
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Rick Burten;236580]Since I'm not a radiologist, I may not be viewing these films correctly. That said, in both films I am confused by what is shown in the exposure. I've not seen lateral rads that show the blocky shape of p3 exhibited in these films. Rathere, the lat. views I have seen show more of a wedge shaped bone. The only time I have seen something different is when, due to the technique involved, the exposure gives a false view of what the bone looks like. Additionally, the p3 in the second rad is exhibiting remodeling at the tip but appears to have a more correct dorsal surface alignment with the dorsal wall of the hoof capsule than does the p3 in the top rad. I also don't understand the diagonal black line drawn under the hoof, through the block in the second rad. What is it purporting to represent?
These are Rads from Dr. Redden, They are of young horses. The palmar processes continue to develop as they age. The blockiness may be just from the high BA. The diagonal black line is just a reference line drawn to measure the PA. I don't think the technique is giving you a false view, These are traditional film radiographs taken with a "soft tissue" technique. This means the xray generator technique is turned down as to not burn through the soft tissue. Many of us are used to seeing a bone detail vs soft tissue. With the advancement of digital we are able to lighten or darken with the software, however prior to that you had to take several different techniques from soft to hard penetration depending on what you are interested in seeing.
Bone or soft tissue or somewhere in between.

The phalangeal alignment in each rad is different and may indicate different surgical and mechanical techniques are necessary if one is to attempt to establish proper phalangeal alignment. Further, since we don't know if the radiographic technique employed involved standing the horses on blocks of equal heights and ensuring that the cannon bones were vertical at the moment the rads were taken, the pictured results and ensuing measurements may or may not be accurate.
Well I would bet that Dr. Redden would have had on two blocks but who knows? I was not present but your are very right, need two blocks custom made to the radiograph center beam heigth. Beam centered on center of foot and 3/4 in above solar surface as to shoot just under the palmar rim of coffin bone.
Again, I'm not a radiologist or veterinarian, haven't stayed at a Holiday Inn recently and have never before seen coffin bones, either in rads or harvested samples, with the pictured conformation.

Again I think yall are assuming that I have suggested this is common. I am saying it is just another consideration when approaching mechanical solutions. You would not consider surgery on a clubby foot with a large Bone angle and a small Palmar angle as it is not likely to help. Conversely a low Bone angle with high Palmar angle would likely greatly benefit from DDFT tension relieving aids (shoes or surgery). Phalangeal alignment in a clubby foot is not always my goal but adequate foot mass (ie 15 or greater mm of sole depth) Most clubs are pretty happy as long as adequate sole depth is present regardless of phalangeal alignment.

I
f you say so. Again, I have never seen, radiographically or harvested, a coffin bone, especially a front limb coffin bone with a BA <50*, and even those are, IME, quite uncommon.

Is that measured with wall distortion removed? And, using the referenced rads, what surgery would you recommend for the top photo and how will said surgery benefit the mis/mal-alignment of p2? If a tenotomy is indicated, how will that affect the future serviceability of the horse?

I would measure toe angle of a dished club by the upper 1/3 of hoof wall. I would not recommend surgery for above cases as a low score rocker shoe will provide adequate DDFT release and subsequent sole depth maintanence.

As far as post surgical performance, I would say it is possible to have a a performance lifestyle if no complications. I dont have enough under my belt to have a definite opinion but I have heard from others that they have had some go have some level of performance post surgerical correction. I think most of these are younger.
Amen, brother! However, words have weight.......

Assuming we have done so, then what?

I would recommend attending a 101 course or at least one of his lecture demo if you are really interested in learning a different and more detailed approach. This is where I have learned what very little I know. I am young in my career but I would say that I take a lot of foot radiographs and do as many venograms as I can to learn the foot and the internal biomechanics as I can. I am not trying to discount anyone's opinion, just give my two cents worth in hopes to create sound learning environment for all of those that may read.
Sammy L. Pittman, DVM
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RE:Heel movement in horses: comparison between glued and nailed horse shoes at different 05 Jun 2011 22:20 #55

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cuttinshoer wrote:
True measurements can't be obtained from rads that are that oblique.
Agreed, and I doubt these are oblique
You have skirted around Rick's question about tendons stretching or contracting. What say you?
No evasion intended. I do not think tendons can stretch and stayed stretched without damage. There is an elastic rubberband like nature to the tendon but stretching beyond that equals damage. Tendons do not contract but muscles do. I have seen trauma to the flexor muscles from lacerations that when healed the muscles have become very scarred/fibrosed and do have a shortened or contracted state. I cannot find the particular study, but Dr. Redden speaks of a study that was performed that showed a higher electrical/neurological stimulation noted in the DDFM of upright feet with high pa than in lower pa. So that would suggest the muscle/tendon unit is shorter due to higher muscle contraction stimulation pulling the PA up.
What about angle of the shoulder rather than muscle contracture?[
I have looked into that some. I placed dots of green tape on top of spine of scapula, point of shoulder and points on elbow of horses then drastically changed the PA (0-20dg) and took digital photos so i could measure the difference in shoulder angle. I really could not appreciate much change in angle between the two pa's. So answer is I don't know. It really doesnt matter to me because all I can change effectively is the PA and DDFT tension.
Sammy L. Pittman, DVM
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RE:Heel movement in horses: comparison between glued and nailed horse shoes at different 05 Jun 2011 22:27 #56

  • docsam03
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tbloomer wrote:
Did you actually get paid for these? :rolleyes:

No these are from Dr. Redden so i have collected nothing. And I assume by that response you are not accustomed to looking soft tissue techniques. These are techniques designed to evaluate the soft tissue not the bone. If using traditional film one must alter the xray generator settings to obtain different levels of penetration to evaluate different aspects. Hard penetrations/hotter settings are used for bones but burn through soft tissue. With that setting one will miss minor density differences noted in soft tissue techniques. Densities such as gas or fluid pockets, endodermal/ectodermal junction. I guess it all depends on what you are looking for.
Sammy L. Pittman, DVM
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RE:Heel movement in horses: comparison between glued and nailed horse shoes at different 06 Jun 2011 00:03 #57

  • Rick Burten
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docsam03 wrote:
These are Rads from Dr. Redden, They are of young horses. The palmar processes continue to develop as they age. The blockiness may be just from the high BA.
That makes no sense to me. You have indicated that "These are traditional film radiographs taken with a "soft tissue" technique. This means the xray generator technique is turned down as to not burn through the soft tissue. " That being the case, the measurements are not measuring what they purport to measure, ie: the bone angle. If that is indeed the case, then the entire premise of the study and its conclusions are incorrect.
The diagonal black line is just a reference line drawn to measure the PA.
Seems rather arbitrary to me.
With the advancement of digital we are able to lighten or darken with the software, however prior to that you had to take several different techniques from soft to hard penetration depending on what you are interested in seeing.
Bone or soft tissue or somewhere in between.
This protocol seems to be a logical fallacy where the conclusion is forming the premise.
I was not present but your are very right, need two blocks custom made to the radiograph center beam heigth. Beam centered on center of foot and 3/4 in above solar surface as to shoot just under the palmar rim of coffin bone.
To the untrained eye of a non-radiologist(me) that does not seem to have given the desired results.
Again I think yall are assuming that I have suggested this is common. I am saying it is just another consideration when approaching mechanical solutions. You would not consider surgery on a clubby foot with a large Bone angle and a small Palmar angle as it is not likely to help.
I am not convinced that this situation(large BA/small PA) has been presented/represented.
Conversely a low Bone angle with high Palmar angle would likely greatly benefit from DDFT tension relieving aids (shoes or surgery).
Even if it is p2 that is out of alignment with p1 & p3? If so, in that instance, what surgery would be recommended and what follow-up mechanical treatment would be indicated?
Phalangeal alignment in a clubby foot is not always my goal but adequate foot mass (ie 15 or greater mm of sole depth) Most clubs are pretty happy as long as adequate sole depth is present regardless of phalangeal alignment.
Except perhaps when as the farrier, you are tasked with getting a hi-lo horse to gait squarely.
I would not recommend surgery for above cases as a low score rocker shoe will provide adequate DDFT release and subsequent sole depth maintanence.
Cites? Please describe/define a 'low score rocker shoe" .
As far as post surgical performance, I would say it is possible to have a a performance lifestyle if no complications. I dont have enough under my belt to have a definite opinion but I have heard from others that they have had some go have some level of performance post surgerical correction. I think most of these are younger.
Which surgical correction? Desmotomy? Tenotomy? Either/both?
I am not trying to discount anyone's opinion,........
I don't believe anyone has said or inferred that.
..........just give my two cents worth in hopes to create sound learning environment for all of those that may read.
I find that you/we are accomplishing just that.

Thank you for the enlightened discussion.
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
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RE:Heel movement in horses: comparison between glued and nailed horse shoes at different 06 Jun 2011 03:34 #58

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Rick Burten wrote:
That makes no sense to me. You have indicated that "These are traditional film radiographs taken with a "soft tissue" technique. This means the xray generator technique is turned down as to not burn through the soft tissue. " That being tge case, the measurements are not measuring what they purport to measure, ie: the bone angle. If that is indeed the case, then the entire premise of the study and its conclusions are incorrect.

Seems rather arbitrary to me.

This protocol seems to be a logical fallacy where the conclusion is forming the premise.

To the untrained eye of a non-radiologist(me) that does not seem to have given the desired results.

I am not convinced that this situation(large BA/small PA) has been kpresented/represented.

Even if it is p2 that is out of alignment with p1 & p3? If to. in that instance, what surgery would be recommended and what follow-up mechanical treatment would be indicated?

Except perhaps when as the farrier, you are tasked with getting a hi-lo horse to gait squarely.

Cites? Please describe/define a 'low score rocker shoe" .

Which surgical correction? Desmotomy? Tenotomy? Either/both?

I don't believe anyone has said or inferred that.

I find that you/we are accomplishing just that.

Thank you for the enlightened discussion.
Iam sorry but I have not the time to fully debate with cites and references. I dont feel youhave you given adequate reasons for why you disagree. You seem quick for oratoric retort and it seems as if it doesnt exist in your world then it must be a lie or incorrect. I would suggest again to attend the tulsa or san antonio lecture/demo of dr reddens and you can satisfy your desires directly from the source. Order the 2010 lecture notes, lot of good info there and there are several free articles on his website, so feel free to educate yourself. http://www.nanric.com/Howtotreatclubfeet.asp
Sammy L. Pittman, DVM
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RE:Heel movement in horses: comparison between glued and nailed horse shoes at different 06 Jun 2011 13:54 #59

  • Rick Burten
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docsam03 wrote:
Iam sorry but I have not the time to fully debate with cites and references.
A pity as this was developing into an interesting discussion.
I dont feel youhave you given adequate reasons for why you disagree.
Or perhaps its that you're finding the cheese a bit binding?
You seem quick for oratoric retort and it seems as if it doesnt exist in your world then it must be a lie or incorrect.
Hmmm, for a seemingly educated man, it would appear that you missed class the day that basic reading for content in context with comprehension was taught.
I would suggest again to attend the tulsa or san antonio lecture/demo of dr reddens and you can satisfy your desires directly from the source.
Thanks for the suggestion Doc. However, it was you who brought the subject to the table for discussion so I would expect that you would be able to engage in a meaningful discussion and substantiate your statements/position. Apparently, my expectations were too lofty. Besides, were I to attend said lecture/demos, It wouldn't be to, as you put it, "satisfy my desires", rather it would be to [hopefully] satisfy my intellectual curiosity and [perhaps] expand my knowledge and understanding. As a man of letters, you do ken the difference don't you?
Order the 2010 lecture notes, lot of good info there and there are several free articles on his website, so feel free to educate yourself. http://www.nanric.com/Howtotreatclubfeet.asp
There you go again with the logical fallacies...... Oh, and even though I don't need it, thanks for your permission.......:rolleyes:

As a gesture of good will, I offer you this bit of advise, Don't bring a knife to a gun fight......;)
Rick Burten PF

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."


Je pense donc je suis
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RE:Heel movement in horses: comparison between glued and nailed horse shoes at different 06 Jun 2011 15:25 #60

  • tbloomer
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docsam03 wrote:
No these are from Dr. Redden so i have collected nothing. And I assume by that response you are not accustomed to looking soft tissue techniques.
I'm not accustomed to discussing bone geometry using images taken for soft tissue diagnostics. However I am quite accustomed to seeing vets charge for;
  1. Poorly exposed images containing no useful diagnostic information.
  2. Images with motion blur from hand held generators or hand held film
  3. Images developed in old chemicals.
  4. Images with gross magnification, reduction, or parallax errors.
These are techniques designed to evaluate the soft tissue not the bone.
Then it would seem rather silly to use images taken with these "techniques" to illustrate bone geometry.
If using traditional film one must alter the xray generator settings to obtain different levels of penetration to evaluate different aspects. Hard penetrations/hotter settings are used for bones but burn through soft tissue. With that setting one will miss minor density differences noted in soft tissue techniques. Densities such as gas or fluid pockets, endodermal/ectodermal junction. I guess it all depends on what you are looking for.
As far as I can tell you've been discussing variations in the geometry of P3 and you've posted "examples." As such it is difficult for me to take you seriously as you are now making excuses about your choice of "example" images.
Tom Bloomer
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Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
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