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TOPIC: Idealized conformation and the real world

Idealized conformation and the real world 21 Dec 2010 17:31 #1

  • Frank Turley
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May I go out on a limb? I see on the medial-lateral ideal hoof balance charts, including the dorsal view, that the hoof is absolutely symmetrical like in ol' Professor Russells's books. Yet in my experience, the normal hoof is more full and rounding on the lateral side, especially in front, and I always shod to conform to that slight a-symmetry. I believe the old anatomical drawings show this in Lungwitz and Dollar. To my way of thinking, this "imbalance" is mother nature's balance, and should not be toyed with.

Furthermore, I find in the idealized drawings of the horse as viewed from behind, that the legs are absolutely plumb and the toes straight ahead in the line-of-stride. However, in looking at and judging horses in the standing position, it appears that they have some set (angle) to the hind legs which results in a bit of toe-out. I'm not talking about cow hock; I'm talking about at least 2/3 the leg length turned laterally to a small degree, and to me again, this is what mother nature wants, regardless of what we think.

http://www.turleyforge.com Granddaddy of Blacksmith Schools
Frank Turley
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RE:Idealized conformation and the real world 21 Dec 2010 18:02 #2

  • Ray_Knightley
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Thanks for this Thread!!


Lunwitz has writen under the right hand picture that this is a regular right front hoof ....Regular The word that is important .

What we see and what we think we see are two very different things...

As what we see in our minds eye and what we would like to see over run what is really in fact infront of us..

With care in older Animals..
A symetrical hoof should be the aim as sadly if a regular hoof is followed it has been found that the hoof slowly gets worse.For this reason we learn here to work for symmetrie in all limbs ....But also learn to see where the problem in the limb lies and react to that in the trim....Rasp and nippers No sledge hammers..

With the aim for correction In Young animals..with symmatrie In mind...
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RE:Idealized conformation and the real world 21 Dec 2010 22:24 #3

  • Rick Talbert
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Frank Turley wrote:
May I go out on a limb? I see on the medial-lateral ideal hoof balance charts, including the dorsal view, that the hoof is absolutely symmetrical like in ol' Professor Russells's books. Yet in my experience, the normal hoof is more full and rounding on the lateral side, especially in front, and I always shod to conform to that slight a-symmetry. I believe the old anatomical drawings show this in Lungwitz and Dollar. To my way of thinking, this "imbalance" is mother nature's balance, and should not be toyed with.

Furthermore, I find in the idealized drawings of the horse as viewed from behind, that the legs are absolutely plumb and the toes straight ahead in the line-of-stride. However, in looking at and judging horses in the standing position, it appears that they have some set (angle) to the hind legs which results in a bit of toe-out. I'm not talking about cow hock; I'm talking about at least 2/3 the leg length turned laterally to a small degree, and to me again, this is what mother nature wants, regardless of what we think.

http://www.turleyforge.com Granddaddy of Blacksmith Schools

I would agree with this. Myron McLane mentioned something similar to this in a clinic I attended a few years ago, and it made a lot of sense then as it does now. If I remember correctly I think Myron's point was that a lot of hind hooves are flared some laterally, and this does not mean that they are not in "balance". And that maybe we should not be so concerned with this asymetrical hoof type that for all practical purposes is healthy and probably functionally ideal. I would hate to misrepresent his views, but something along these lines is what I remember. I tell people all the time that there is no such thing as a perfect hoof, its just how meticulous do we want to scrutinize it. Balance is fairly subjective and poorly defined anyways. Static, Dynamic, whatever. The hoof kind of tells you how it needs to be trimmed and to what extent, just stick your ear down there and listen to it if you don't believe me :D
Rick Talbert
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RE:Idealized conformation and the real world 22 Dec 2010 04:02 #4

  • Rachael Kane
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I agree Frank, I think about hinds all the time and how they often have a valgal tendency at the hock. I often see more deviation in the off side limb - and more issues there too.

Can I add that a flare in the lat quarters often results from a high medial toe. Not saying in all cases, but that is my experience, and it is a very common fault in trimming. Grant Moon's explanation on coronary band mapping indicates the same thing.

Makes me wonder if it's mother nature or human error. Either way, it is what it is:).
Rachael :)
CF

'Motivation gets you going, discipline keeps you going.' (Jim Ryan).
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RE:Idealized conformation and the real world 22 Dec 2010 04:33 #5

  • cuttinshoer
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Justin Decker

"As I see it, good enough is never good enough, it's just an excuse for mediocrity. If every shoeing ain't worth your best shot, you're just going through the motions." Tom Stovall, CJF
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RE:Idealized conformation and the real world 25 Dec 2010 18:49 #6

  • Ray_Knightley
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Frank
One thought came to mind on this subject .
Why tradition nailing shoes used 7nails ,a clear reason would be because of the true regular form of the hoof would allow only 3 nails medial ,or?
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RE:Idealized conformation and the real world 25 Dec 2010 22:59 #7

  • Jack Evers
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Ray_Knightley wrote:
Frank
One thought came to mind on this subject .
Why tradition nailing shoes used 7nails ,a clear reason would be because of the true regular form of the hoof would allow only 3 nails medial ,or?

When Edward Martin was asked why traditional European farriers did that, he said "so my app knows which shoe to hand me".
Jack Evers CJF AFA#426

The best things about the good old days -- I wasn't good and I wasn't old.

The older I get, the more horses I shoe, the fewer things that I can absolutely, positively fix.
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RE:Idealized conformation and the real world 25 Dec 2010 23:21 #8

  • Ray_Knightley
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Jack Evers wrote:
When Edward Martin was asked why traditional European farriers did that, he said "so my app knows which shoe to hand me".

I got hold of a bunch of shoes from the 80's it's very easy to see which hand they are from ,with 8 nail holes ,I always thought this was because the shoe was set narrow medial and wide lateral ,which would make no sence on a balanced symmetrical hoof .maybe the true reason was because they where made for regular hoof form .

Ps they seem to fit without much shaping ,just need to be cleaned in the finish and edges and clips all are a bit ruff against the shoes now.
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RE:Idealized conformation and the real world 25 Dec 2010 23:46 #9

  • Jack Evers
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You're right Ray. Edward was joking. I've said on most horses I don't need to mark the shoes. I know from the shape which foot it fits. A pigeon toed horse may reverse the normal shape, but I still know where it fits.
Jack Evers CJF AFA#426

The best things about the good old days -- I wasn't good and I wasn't old.

The older I get, the more horses I shoe, the fewer things that I can absolutely, positively fix.
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RE:Idealized conformation and the real world 26 Dec 2010 00:17 #10

  • Ray_Knightley
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Jack Evers wrote:
You're right Ray. Edward was joking. I've said on most horses I don't need to mark the shoes. I know from the shape which foot it fits. A pigeon toed horse may reverse the normal shape, but I still know where it fits.

Merry Christmas to you and You'res Jack ,i got the joke ,writing on this silly Small iPhone Makes me Write Short posts sorry.
Our pc is so Slow ,we had a Meeting of vet/Farriers a few Weeks back in Dortmund 19th Year ,One Guy talk was on diagonal Hoof Form and that over 20% of the Horses He does have a Toe out conformation where the Toe/Hoof Twists in ,After Looking at His trim ,No Wonder at all on my Side .
The rest of the talks were only on Hoof capsel itself ,Basic Form and very interesting ...good i Took my present
Ps we Tend to Hit Mark the outside branch once As a useful sign for the Foot the Shoe wants.
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RE:Idealized conformation and the real world 26 Dec 2010 21:02 #11

  • Frank Turley
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Thanks to all for the info and the reference to Rooney.

About the seven nails; I heard that it had to do with the horseshoe being
lucky and the lucky number, seven...seven stars of the big dipper, and all that kind of stuff.
Frank Turley
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RE:Idealized conformation and the real world 27 Dec 2010 00:47 #12

  • mwmyersdvm
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Examining some of these "conformational distortions" radiographically, I have found quite a few simple flares and actual hoof distortions, more so than full limb distortions. These will correct with appropriate trims and careful shoe applications when needed. I usually align my trim and shoes with the limb and note that a lot of horses will track much straighter when this is done.
I don't usually trim along the lines of the distortion as it can get worse with this protocol. While a hoof may follow poor conformation, allowing it to progress may only make the situation worse. Most of our domestic horses have lost their "naturalness" (as it might be termed) and would be dealt with in nature by becoming dinner for a wolf pack, thus removing the problem from the gene pool. I don't have too many owners willing to go along with mother nature's grand plan to this extent :)
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RE:Idealized conformation and the real world 27 Dec 2010 21:53 #13

  • jack-mac
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mwmyersdvm wrote:
Examining some of these "conformational distortions" radiographically, I have found quite a few simple flares and actual hoof distortions, more so than full limb distortions. These will correct with appropriate trims and careful shoe applications when needed. I usually align my trim and shoes with the limb and note that a lot of horses will track much straighter when this is done.
I don't usually trim along the lines of the distortion as it can get worse with this protocol. While a hoof may follow poor conformation, allowing it to progress may only make the situation worse. Most of our domestic horses have lost their "naturalness" (as it might be termed) and would be dealt with in nature by becoming dinner for a wolf pack, thus removing the problem from the gene pool. I don't have too many owners willing to go along with mother nature's grand plan to this extent :)
Maybe you could put forward some examples of your fine corrective works. Horses feet are not symmetrical, never have been & never will be.
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RE:Idealized conformation and the real world 27 Dec 2010 22:02 #14

  • mwmyersdvm
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I did not make them perfectly symmetrical, just improved on their function and appearance. I was handed some of these cases from owners who said they looked this way because they were informed they could not be trimmed any differently because that is the way they grew and this cannot be changed. I do feel that the farriers posting on this site do not allow their client's horses go to such an extent, but we need to remember that many 'lurkers' are out there and if they see a general statement that one need not strive to improve a hoof distortion, they see that as an affirmation to allow it to continue far beyond where it should go. I will check my files for some interesting cases along these lines.

M. W. Myers, D.V.M.
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RE:Idealized conformation and the real world 27 Dec 2010 23:03 #15

  • reillyshoe
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jack-mac wrote:
Maybe you could put forward some examples of your fine corrective works. Horses feet are not symmetrical, never have been & never will be.

Maybe you should put forward some examples of how this should be handled instead of dispensing a hollow expert opinion. Lord knows we have asked you in every polite way imaginable for examples of your work.
P
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