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TOPIC: White Line

White Line 15 Dec 2010 12:30 #1

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I'm doing a horse for a client whose horse has white line disease in all 4 feet. Myself and the vet decided it was best to do 1 foot at a time. I've resected the foot and its being wrapped with gauze and bedadine 7 to 10 days or until the soft tissue hardens, then my plan was to rebuild the foot with equloix and composite cloth (I've done many horses this way succesfully). Well she called and told me that she read online that it's better to let it grow out.I told her we could do that but at the rate of one foot at a time it should only take about 3 to 4 years before the feet all grow back again and she can be shod all the way around again. I've never had a problem rebuilding the foot and the horse being sound as long as it was resected correctly. Any thoughts on what you might do in this situation also how any of you approach white line disease?
Jeremy Lacroix
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RE:White Line 15 Dec 2010 13:30 #2

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Why just one foot at a time? Have you transferred load bearing? Is she lame on the resected foot? What negative effect would doing another foot have and why?
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RE:White Line 15 Dec 2010 14:51 #3

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White line disease tends to "travel" faster than wall growth. Treating a single hoof when all four are infected provides opportunity for infection to advance in the untreated feet. If you only treat one at a time, the problem could easily get ahead of you.

Rebuilding with any polymer runs the risk of creating an anaerobic environment in which any missed infection may thrive. Resect the infected area, paint with an antimicrobial and install supportive shoes as appropriate.

Cheers,
Mark
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RE:White Line 15 Dec 2010 17:28 #4

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I would say it depends on the severity of the infection. I think I live in the WLD capital of the world here in middle GA, lol. When a severe resection is required, and 50-80% of the hoof wall is removed, I think it is wise to only do one front and one hind. Once these two have begun to recover and positive hoof growth has grown down halfway or more, then I would begin to think about resecting the other two hooves. (Use frog support when you do a substancial resection.) You could cover it up, but I usually prefer to leave the resections open. This way you obviously don't trap any bacteria under the equilox, and the rescted area is open to oxygen and can be cleaned and treated often. New growth can easily be monitored and if a touch up is needed with the dremel, you have access to do so.
Rick Talbert
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RE:White Line 15 Dec 2010 21:04 #5

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I have taken 85% to 90% of the hoof wall off. There is nothing left to nail to I do have lilly pads to duct tape on. I am leary of doing all 4 feet at the same time because I have to take this much hoof wall off all the feet. So there is know weight bearing left other than the frog. Also in my state I have to do what the vet prescribes or then I could be held liable,but in this case I do agree with him.
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RE:White Line 15 Dec 2010 21:14 #6

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Show Shoe wrote:
Also in my state I have to do what the vet prescribes or then I could be held liable,but in this case I do agree with him.

In the first post you asked for advice because "my plan was to rebuild the foot with equloix and composite cloth". If you have in fact "taken 85% to 90% of the hoof wall off" you had best make decisions with the vet. Would like to see some pictures and get follow up.
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RE:White Line 15 Dec 2010 22:14 #7

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Show Shoe wrote:
I have taken 85% to 90% of the hoof wall off. There is nothing left to nail to I do have lilly pads to duct tape on. I am leary of doing all 4 feet at the same time because I have to take this much hoof wall off all the feet. So there is know weight bearing left other than the frog. Also in my state I have to do what the vet prescribes or then I could be held liable,but in this case I do agree with him.

What state are you in that mandates that you do what a veterinarian "prescribes"? And if this is the law then why are you bothering to ask for input, because what would it matter. The vet apparently is the decision maker in this instance right?
Sometimes, you may be wise to leave some of the lesser infected portions of the hoof intact because some support is better than none at all.
Rick Talbert
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RE:White Line 15 Dec 2010 22:39 #8

If anyone is in the mood to make a fortune, invent an antibacterial hoof repair material.

I think you have to leave the resected section open Jeremy, or at most covered with a bandage that you can take off. If I had to take 85% to 95% of the wall off, I wouldn't do more than one hoof at a time. I would frequently soak the others in Clean Trax or White Lightning untill It was safe to get at them. Sounds like a bad sitiation, best of luck with it.

Rick, if I was working on a valuable horse, I wouldn't want to be in the position of having gone against the vets recommendation if things went south.

Regards
Rick Shepherd

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RE:White Line 15 Dec 2010 23:49 #9

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Western Hill Forge wrote:

Rick, if I was working on a valuable horse, I wouldn't want to be in the position of having gone against the vets recommendation if things went south.

We have discussed this before. Some people view their role as a farrier differently. If I am working with a vet on a case then I will have some input. I would not do something I thought would be a train wreck. I work with vets every week, and have no problems. When a horse is brought to the vet clinic where I work, that owner is THEIR client, and I will shoe it however the vet likes within reason, but I always have input. If I am called independently by an owner to consult on a case I will offer my opinion regardless of what their vet's opinion is or was. If the owner wants to do it my way, we do it. If not they can call someone else. I have never had one call someone else. I have certainly worked against veterinary opinions in the past when I knew them to be wrong. I know the vets in my area, and I know the ones who know and the ones who don't have a clue. When there is a difference of opinion, the owner is the decider. I am not going to be onboard with a gameplan that is a sinking ship, cause when the excrement hits the fan the farrier is not going to be the one holding the umbrella. If you were building a skyscraper and the architect decided it would be cool to build it out of straw, would you build it out of straw or would you make sure it was done properly? Thats all I am saying. Unless the veterinarian is paying your salary you are not required to comply. You can refuse to do anything you don't agree with. If you think your going to be protected hiding behind the DVM's malpractice insurance good luck and carry on. But when things go south it won't be the "prescription" that was wrong, it will be the application that was wrong. It won't be the vet getting sued, it will be the farrier. The farrier then will be responsible for explaining that he did something he knew to be negligent because that was his interpretation of the veterinary opinion. It can be summed up by saying don't do ****** s..hit. :rolleyes:
Rick Talbert
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RE:White Line 16 Dec 2010 00:36 #10

Rick Talbert wrote:
It can be summed up by saying don't do ****** s..hit. :rolleyes:

Pretty hard to argue with that. My position would be the DVM trumps whatever credential you have - CJF RMF FWCF etc. If you disagree with the vet opinion, and can't convince him/her to change it, walk away.

Regards
Rick Shepherd

Although we know what we believe, we may only believe what we know. Dr William Moyers
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RE:White Line 16 Dec 2010 02:35 #11

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Rick Talbert wrote:
We have discussed this before. Some people view their role as a farrier differently. If I am working with a vet on a case then I will have some input. I would not do something I thought would be a train wreck. I work with vets every week, and have no problems. When a horse is brought to the vet clinic where I work, that owner is THEIR client, and I will shoe it however the vet likes within reason, but I always have input. If I am called independently by an owner to consult on a case I will offer my opinion regardless of what their vet's opinion is or was. If the owner wants to do it my way, we do it. If not they can call someone else. I have never had one call someone else. I have certainly worked against veterinary opinions in the past when I knew them to be wrong. I know the vets in my area, and I know the ones who know and the ones who don't have a clue. When there is a difference of opinion, the owner is the decider. I am not going to be onboard with a gameplan that is a sinking ship, cause when the excrement hits the fan the farrier is not going to be the one holding the umbrella. If you were building a skyscraper and the architect decided it would be cool to build it out of straw, would you build it out of straw or would you make sure it was done properly? Thats all I am saying. Unless the veterinarian is paying your salary you are not required to comply. You can refuse to do anything you don't agree with. If you think your going to be protected hiding behind the DVM's malpractice insurance good luck and carry on. But when things go south it won't be the "prescription" that was wrong, it will be the application that was wrong. It won't be the vet getting sued, it will be the farrier. The farrier then will be responsible for explaining that he did something he knew to be negligent because that was his interpretation of the veterinary opinion. It can be summed up by saying don't do ****** s..hit. :rolleyes:

Working at a clinic really means nothing I've fixed many horses that were shod at a clinic. If you read on to through my posts I agreed with what the vet wanted in fact I talked him into to it because he wanted to soak the horses feet in pine sol and epsom salt. He liked my solution so it then became his perscription. I always try to do whats best for the horse but when it's my arse on the line I'll cover my arse first. Thanks for your input though.
Jeremy Lacroix
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RE:White Line 16 Dec 2010 02:38 #12

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Rick Talbert wrote:
What state are you in that mandates that you do what a veterinarian "prescribes"? And if this is the law then why are you bothering to ask for input, because what would it matter. The vet apparently is the decision maker in this instance right?
Sometimes, you may be wise to leave some of the lesser infected portions of the hoof intact because some support is better than none at all.

I dont agree with that it needs to be exposed to oxygen. I've done numerous resection with great results. I was just trying to get some different ideas.
Jeremy Lacroix
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RE:White Line 16 Dec 2010 03:00 #13

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Rick thats good advice. (But what about the owner and the horse?) Here is some examples of past veterinary/ farrier conversations and prescriptions I have dealt with just over the past few years in my area of Georgia.
1)vet calls farrier "what type of shoe is best for a horse that has lacerated 'corDinary' band?"
2)vet calls farrier "what can we do for a horse that has 'P1' coming through the sole?"
3)farrier calls vet to ask if he can come out to meet with an owner and test a horse for EPM. vet answers "sure, is that a blood test or hair analysis?"
4)farrier witnesses vet explain to an owner that "radiographs are not ordinarily needed for foundered horses." and that "to 'fix' a foundered horse we generally just want to shorten its hooves."
5)vet tells client to treat thrush by "pouring lighter fluid into the hoof"
same vet tells client with foundered horse to "walk the horse daily on gravel to toughen its feet and to put gravel around her water troughs"
6)vet tells owner of badly foundered horse "the feet are not the problem, the stomach is the problem and the hooves will repair themselves if the owner starts giving the horse (some sort of fish oil she could buy at the herbal store)"
7)vet uses dowsing rods held over the horse's back and because they came together on a certain spot on a horse with a badly blown suspensory, he said "the suspensory wasn't the issue, its the shoulder."
8)vet tells owner that all 12 horses in her barn have "enlarged tendons in every leg because all the hooves need to be at a (53 or whatever) angle"
9)vet draws blood on clients horse to test for EPM (yes I know its not a blood test), client calls several days later. Vet says "yes sorry the results came back it is EPM". Vet comes out puts horse down. Farrier later talks to receptionist who shows him the blood vial that was never sent anywhere.
10)vet calls farrier to ask if a dremel tool from wal-mart would work to float teeth with.
11)vet confides to farrier that he never remembered anything being taught in school regarding shoeing or trimming. Same vet later tells several owners they should pull their shoes off and use a "mustang roll" (for no apparent reason, guess he read a magazine)
12)vet refers to the central sulcus as "the frog ditch"
13)vet's prescription "please shorten toes to 4 inches". (the hooves measured 3 and a half inches. (its called magnification)
14) vet prescription "horse has low contracted heels please shoe with number 4 wedge pad and a peice of thick leather pad cut out in the shape of the frog rivetted to the foot surface of the wedge pad" (lol, try to do that with a low heeled horse sometime, the only part of the shoe that touches the hoof is the toe)
15)chronic foundered horse with dropped soles. Vet prescription. "please cup out the soles with your knife so that the hoof is not so flat."
16)horse with bowed tendon, veterinary prescription "please put front shoes on horse with pads."
I could go on and on and on. Thankfully I do work with some very good equine veterinarians that are not this mentally challenged. But this is the sort of baloney I deal with from other local vets. The DVM to me is about as valuable as a cracker jack prize if they don't have any knowledge behind the letters. And you can bet when an owner tells me the vet told her to walk her badly foundered horse on gravel daily to toughen its hooves, I don't waste my time to consult with that vet, and I don't even care about being diplomatic when I tell the owner thats the d-u mb-est thing I have ever heard in my life. I think that veterinary schools are starting to catch on, and I have heard that they have improved their curriculums to include at least some sort of farriery instruction, but many have been woefully inadequate in this regard for years. In the past I have researched this by finding online class listings for some veterinary college curriculums. These take a little research to find by the way, but of the ones I located, not one class offered pertained to the horse's hoof and farriery. I also shod horses at a vet school for a while and know first hand how prepared these students were to soon be giving instruction to the farrier. A elective class that I assisted with was the first to offer anything related to hoof related lameness at the school. Most of the good equine vets have become good equine vets by their own study and pursuit of continueing education, internships and working for good equine vets. And a good equine vet does not necessarily mean they are really knowledgeable with regards to farriery.
Rick Talbert
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RE:White Line 16 Dec 2010 03:11 #14

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Show Shoe wrote:
Working at a clinic really means nothing I've fixed many horses that were shod at a clinic. If you read on to through my posts I agreed with what the vet wanted in fact I talked him into to it because he wanted to soak the horses feet in pine sol and epsom salt. He liked my solution so it then became his perscription. I always try to do whats best for the horse but when it's my arse on the line I'll cover my arse first. Thanks for your input though.

I didn't mean to imply that working at a clinic meant anything at all other than that horses that come to the vet to get fixed I personally consider to be the veterinarian's clients, and will do whatever the vet wants done. I was simply trying to explain, the difference in my mind is often who is being asked to "drive the bus" by the owner. (if that makes any sense). I am glad that you have some say in the matter, from the way I read your post, it seemed you had no alternative but to do what was dictated to you, and that was the law in your state. My point was, if your bound to do only what your told then whats the use in seeking others opinions. No harm meant, to me it seemed like an odd requirement. Its a free country right?
Rick Talbert
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RE:White Line 16 Dec 2010 13:51 #15

Rick,
Wow! I've dealt with some vets I disagree with, but nothing like your experience. If those are true, I understand your position regarding vets. Most of the time my experience has been positive. Now, what to do with the general perception of all vets expertise in all matters equine. I don't want to derail this thread further, but I'm afraid a new thread about veterinarian expertise would just turn into a Peein session.

Let us know how whatever you decide on works out Jeremy. Oppertunity for me to learn something here, thanks.

Regards
Rick Shepherd

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