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TOPIC: Broke back HPA and underrun heels.....

Broke back HPA and underrun heels..... 12 Dec 2010 07:26 #1

  • westtxshoer
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This is a scenario that I see quite often on horses that are "trim only." So without a shoeing package and trimming on a 8-9 week schedule, which of these would you consider more important to deal with? My first inclination is always to trim the heels back to compensate for the underrun heels, but this usually leaves the HPA broken back. If I try to leave the heels at a length in which the HPA is more correct, the underrun heel condition is not improved. Keep in mind that I cannot control the length of the trimming cycle.
RJ Little
Merkel, Texas
817-341-9857

"I ain't askin' nobody for nuthin', if I can't get it on my own." - Charlie Daniels
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RE:Broke back HPA and underrun heels..... 12 Dec 2010 09:16 #2

  • Ray_Knightley
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I have some of these ,what really needed is to work on the owners.
Seems that the only way to get them back is with shoes/correct period between trims.
Must say the work on the owner can take years or never ,then I will drop them because it's your work other will see and the farrier is always the caurse
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RE:Broke back HPA and underrun heels..... 12 Dec 2010 18:58 #3

  • mwmyersdvm
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On a horse with a problem such as this you simply cannot help him with an eight week trim cycle. I use a two week cycle and can get stellar results this way. I can charge a bit less for the trim each time and get the trim frequently "tweaked" so things keep going in the right direction. If the clients are cannot afford your best effort, then they either don't care how their horse feels or they simply cannot afford this horse. Either way, it is not good for your business to "enable" this type of clientele'. I agree on them either doing what is best for the horse or you leave.

Many of these horses will require either a corrective prosthetic at the onset of the treatment or for life dependent on the severity of the condition. Don't call it "shoeing" (because it really isn't) and you will get better compliance.

M. W. Myers, D.V.M.
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RE:Broke back HPA and underrun heels..... 13 Dec 2010 05:47 #4

  • westtxshoer
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8 week trim cycles are pretty standard in my area. If I wanted a clientele that would go for the shorter cycles, I'd have to move. The folks who will keep an 8 week cycle around here are the "good" clients. All the customers I have that will keep a 6 week cycle are 2 hours away.

Thus, the reason for my question. I have to choose what to fix, which would you choose?
RJ Little
Merkel, Texas
817-341-9857

"I ain't askin' nobody for nuthin', if I can't get it on my own." - Charlie Daniels
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RE:Broke back HPA and underrun heels..... 14 Dec 2010 08:13 #5

I customers feel they need to keep horses on an 8 week schedule and you can't or won't kick them off your books, try a 4 point trim if you're up to that. (Some expertise required, I'm sorry I don't know how experienced you are)

It's fast and easy and keeps feet in a pretty good shape for quite a long time.


Ronald Aalders
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RE:Broke back HPA and underrun heels..... 20 May 2011 17:06 #6

  • MPLdyCop
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Ronald Aalders wrote:
I customers feel they need to keep horses on an 8 week schedule and you can't or won't kick them off your books, try a 4 point trim if you're up to that. (Some expertise required, I'm sorry I don't know how experienced you are)

It's fast and easy and keeps feet in a pretty good shape for quite a long time.


Ronald Aalders

What is a 4 point trim?
Kim Turner

www.totalhorsecare.net



Dr. House "You were right, Counts for nothing if you can't defend it."
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RE:Broke back HPA and underrun heels..... 20 May 2011 18:43 #7

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RE:Broke back HPA and underrun heels..... 20 May 2011 18:55 #8

  • MPLdyCop
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hmm, I wasn't taught that in school.
Kim Turner

www.totalhorsecare.net



Dr. House "You were right, Counts for nothing if you can't defend it."
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RE:Broke back HPA and underrun heels..... 20 May 2011 22:30 #9

  • J.H. shoeing
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MPLdyCop wrote:
What is a 4 point trim?

1. unload tools
2. trim horse
3. get paid
4. load tools

repeat step 2 until they run out of horses and step 3 seems to be better
Jeff Holder

Some people are like Slinky’s, pretty much useless but make you smile when you push them down the stairs.
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RE:Broke back HPA and underrun heels..... 21 May 2011 01:29 #10

J.H. shoeing wrote:
1. unload tools
2. trim horse
3. get paid
4. load tools

repeat step 2 until they run out of horses and step 3 seems to be better

Love it, LOL.
Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:Broke back HPA and underrun heels..... 21 May 2011 06:07 #11

  • Mark_Gough
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MPLdyCop wrote:
What is a 4 point trim?

To quote Dr. Michael Miller, "Mirage of the Natural Foot", @2010, the four point trim is a methodology which will produce ...

"A persistent and reproducible distortion of the hoof capsule".


The evidence supporting his assertion is compelling.

Cheers,
Mark
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RE:Broke back HPA and underrun heels..... 21 May 2011 06:43 #12

  • Ray_Knightley
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What I always thought a four point trim was ...forgetting anything of what the so called four point trim as trade mark or special trim style fad or what ever ..
I missed that not having Internet back then or phone /Tv ...

I read a western Magazine a client gave me to try and get sliders on his horse ...this is in Hunsruck ... No horse history,most drove and ploughed with oxen up till 1950 and later ...I am sure it was the first reining shod horses ever in this part of Germany ...

In that same magazine was an Artical ,of balance ,imagine four pilers that make the hoof balanced when the all four have the correct weight balance on them .

Four points two the widest two points in the toe and then heels ...
I think I misunderstood the article ,but keeping theses four reference points in mind helped me correct horses everyday for many years ...

I think all theses methods with names are really for desk trimmers .

Getting to a hoof every 5 minutes all day long and seeing the results of that work 6weeks later ,talking to the owners about how the horse gets About in those 6 weeks and watching the horse move ,seeing a hoof that keeps it's shape (even if that shape don't fit in our text book)over many years without lamness .....

I understand that a trimming system is a good way to learn ,but using a so called natural horse to identify the trim is madness ..I have never seen a wild horse ,and have to trim horses kept in environments that so differ from running about outside with no fences ..about As different as a milk Cow and a giraffe who have the same hooves :)

Long text an IPhone ....mistakes are free here :)
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RE:Broke back HPA and underrun heels..... 21 May 2011 06:46 #13

  • Rick Burten
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Dr. Redden might have a very different take on that subject.

http://www.nanric.com/4PtTrim.asp

Here's an early paper by Dr. O'Grady on the subject

http://www.equipodiatry.com/fourpnt.htm

Here's yet another take on the subject.

http://www.horseshoes.com/advice/dibbrn1/fcoftfrp.htm

Wonder if Dr. Miller read any of those articles or bothered to contact Dr. Redden before he wrote his paper? (IIRC, said work was done as his research paper/component of his FWCF requirements). Regardless, a quick perusal of the annotated bibliography of the book/paper should answer the question as well as offer insights into where the 'evidence' of "A persistent and reproducible distortion of the hoof capsule" can be found, examined and debated. :)
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
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RE:Broke back HPA and underrun heels..... 21 May 2011 07:03 #14

  • Ray_Knightley
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Now I know who that funny looking cowboy was in that western magazine :D

It was a young Dr Redden .....Cool ...
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RE:Broke back HPA and underrun heels..... 21 May 2011 15:50 #15

  • tbloomer
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Rick Burten wrote:
. . . where the 'evidence' of "A persistent and reproducible distortion of the hoof capsule" can be found, examined and debated. :)
Any time somebody persists in whacking away the quarters whilst trimming a foot they are reproducing distortion. Fortunately such practices are blessed by the church of the mechanically inept.
Tom Bloomer
http://blackburnforge.com
302-222-6404


Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
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