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TOPIC: Support or leverage

RE:Support or leverage 17 Jul 2010 20:38 #46

  • Cfarrier
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jack-mac wrote:
Message to jack Breathe deeply, in hail ,x hail & don't beat up on them think happy thoughts think happy thoughts. The hoof grows forward for a Reason!!!!, that reason is the fulcrum in the hoof capsule is one of shifting nature in cycle from heel landing to break over , meaning transference & dissipation of force, stresses & shock wave away from the centralisation of the coffin joint, utilising the sesamoid (navicular bone) ligaments, cartilage & the deep flexor tendon, there is no support gained what so ever from excessive extending of heels on shoes past that which would never be seen on any horse ,& in doing such you are servilely retarding that ability in function on every heel landing of that horse & causing damage to the joint & ligaments , with out this function of transference & dissipation via this mechanism, The coffin joint over time will deteriorate & fail ,The joint being to small in nature to cope with out this mechanism functioning properly.
Jac I appreciate the thoughts, I got something good from that. I may have implied something I did not wish to convey. Specifically that I as a rule advocate “extreme” extension of heel length from the shoe.
In determining how to approach a crushed heel one aspect I look for is the relationship between leg and hoof that I mentioned in my previous post. There are times I add length others where I shoe along the same lines as the Travis Koons example and still others where I actually give a slight rocker to the heel.

Do you believe tight/lax flexors are a causative factor in determing heel conformation?
Ken C. Yazzi


The first panacea for a mismanaged nation is inflation of the currency; the second is war. Both bring a temporary prosperity; both bring a permanent ruin. But both are the refuge of political and economic opportunists.
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RE:Support or leverage 17 Jul 2010 23:31 #47

Cfarrier wrote:
Do you believe tight/lax flexors are a causative factor in determing heel conformation?

I'm not Jack, but tought I would share something I learned from Pat Rielly many years ago. P3 is sitting in a sling. Between the extensor and Deep Digital flexor tendons. What say you my friend? :)
Phil Armitage, CF
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"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:Support or leverage 18 Jul 2010 00:16 #48

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Phil Armitage wrote:
I'm not Jack, but tought I would share something I learned from Pat Rielly many years ago. P3 is sitting in a sling. Between the extensor and Deep Digital flexor tendons. What say you my friend? :)
I don't think that's quite correct per say, other then there attachment & if you severed "both" those tendons on the limb, the function of the joint to support weight & function would be completely diminished, there's nothing rocket science about that.
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RE:Support or leverage 18 Jul 2010 01:08 #49

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Cfarrier wrote:
Jac I appreciate the thoughts, I got something good from that. I may have implied something I did not wish to convey. Specifically that I as a rule advocate “extreme” extension of heel length from the shoe.
In determining how to approach a crushed heel one aspect I look for is the relationship between leg and hoof that I mentioned in my previous post. There are times I add length others where I shoe along the same lines as the Travis Koons example and still others where I actually give a slight rocker to the heel.

Do you believe tight/lax flexors are a causative factor in determining heel conformation?
Not per say in them self the direct cause as tendons will & do fluctuate, the horse would be in a lot of trouble if it's tendons in the limb didn't have the capacity to adapt to its hoof growth cycle & varietal length that presents over continual growth cycle , but tight/lax flexsor tendons can be a contributing factor indirectly due to incapacitation of full intended function of the limb most cases being through injury. "meaning" how the limb & joints & other tissues in there own right are being loaded, how they react & what differentiations that affect may cause to circulation & configuration of conformation, necessitating or causing abnormal wear & tear as well as other abnormal growth pattern change taking place.
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RE:Support or leverage 18 Jul 2010 01:52 #50

  • Tom Stovall CJF
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jack-mac in gray

I don't think that's quite correct per say, other then there attachment & if you severed "both" those tendons on the limb, the function of the joint to support weight & function would be completely diminished, there's nothing rocket science about that.


Balderdash! If the DDFT and SFT are severed, the fetlock will NOT descend to the point of resting on the ground; only after the suspensory ligament is severed will the fetlock rest on the ground. [Extra credit: Why?]
Tom Stovall, CJF
"The only foolish question is the one left unasked."
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RE:Support or leverage 18 Jul 2010 02:57 #51

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Cfarrier wrote:
OK then I will say while I agree with most if not all of the observations I do not fully agree with the conclusion regarding tighter/lax flexors as a causative factor. I believe they are more a result of the conformational relationship between hoof and leg.

When a DFT is severed the toe will flip up...or at least it will on most horses...especially the longer, more sloped pasterned horse. This shows us how the un-severed DFT is responsible for pulling the toe/anterior half of the foot down. This action, because it pivots P3 around the COA in the center of the distal condyle of P2, requires that it pull the heel/posterior half of the foot up. The more the tension, the harder the pulling force (both down on the toe and up on the heel) and vice versa for the lax tendon. The more it pulls the posterior up (and anterior down), the less load is placed on the heels (and more on the toe) because that portion is assumed by the tendon and transferred toward the toe...and vice versa. Sure, genetics, circulation, diet, conformation, etc. are also contributing factors to capsular integrity, but the tension in the DFT is also a causative factor...and one that we have an immediate and direct influence on. The longer, more sloped pastern will have a diminished capacity for heel horn weight bearing because the angle that the DFT comes into the navicular bone is lower so subsequently the direction of its tension is more 'back' than 'up'. Contrarily the more upright the pastern, the angle that the DFT comes into the navicular bone is higher so its direction of tension is more 'up' than 'back'. ...or at least, this is my understanding of the systems...
Scruggs Farrier Service
John Scruggs, CJF
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RE:Support or leverage 18 Jul 2010 13:57 #52

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Phil I'm not Jack, but tought I would share something I learned from Pat Rielly many years ago. P3 is sitting in a sling. Between the extensor and Deep Digital flexor tendons.

Just to help you out TEN GALLON the common digital extensor tendon is attached to the top front portion of the pedal bone.:rolleyes: cut that & the deep digital flexor tendon & the limb hasn't got a lot going for it. Oh & did I here an echo NO!!! that's right Ten gallons the only one talking about fetlocks. i'm talking about the coffin joint LOL
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RE:Support or leverage 18 Jul 2010 15:02 #53

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& Ten Gallon a bit of sermon is good for the soul
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nej7KUqVJHU
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RE:Support or leverage 18 Jul 2010 15:12 #54

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jack-mac in gray

Just to help you out TEN GALLON the common digital extensor tendon is attached to the top front portion of the pedal bone.:rolleyes: cut that & the deep digital flexor tendon & the limb hasn't got a lot going for it.

Not to worry Troll, while the function of the distal interphalangeal joint will be severely impaired if the DDFT and SFT are cut, the fetlock will not rest on the ground until the suspensory ligament is severed.

Oh & did I here an echo NO!!! that's right Ten gallons the only one talking about fetlocks. i'm talking about the coffin joint LOL

Have you ever considered writing in English? You can't possibly be more embarrassed by your inability to communicate via the written word than you are at present - and if your efforts are even partially successful, the nonsensical gibberish by which you attempt to communicate will be more easily deciphered by the reader. Might I suggest, Rozakis, "The Complete Idiót's Guide to Writing Well"; or, Woods, "The English Grammar Workbook for Dummies"? Both are available from Amazon and will be invaluable to a person with your writing skills. :)
Tom Stovall, CJF
"The only foolish question is the one left unasked."
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RE:Support or leverage 18 Jul 2010 15:43 #55

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Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
jack-mac in gray

Just to help you out TEN GALLON the common digital extensor tendon is attached to the top front portion of the pedal bone.:rolleyes: cut that & the deep digital flexor tendon & the limb hasn't got a lot going for it.

Not to worry Troll, while the function of the distal interphalangeal joint will be severely impaired if the DDFT and SFT are cut, the fetlock will not rest on the ground until the suspensory ligament is severed.

Oh & did I here an echo NO!!! that's right Ten gallons the only one talking about fetlocks. i'm talking about the coffin joint LOL

Have you ever considered writing in English? You can't possibly be more embarrassed by your inability to communicate via the written word than you are at present - and if your efforts are even partially successful, the nonsensical gibberish by which you attempt to communicate will be more easily deciphered by the reader. Might I suggest, Rozakis, "The Complete Idiót's Guide to Writing Well"; or, Woods, "The English Grammar Workbook for Dummies"? Both are available from Amazon and will be invaluable to a person with your writing skills. :)
lol you cant even comprehend when I write in the most "simplistic of form", & you couldn't even calculate with "basic maths" that your inertia front legs only support is not possible & DO DO & you wish me to step it up a notch past your level of comprehension, DON'T TEMP ME TEN GALLON or I "will" right in a scientific stile & format THAT WILL MAKE YOU LOOK EVEN SILLIER THEN YOU ALL READY DO. ;)
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RE:Support or leverage 18 Jul 2010 15:57 #56

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jack-mac

lol you cant even comprehend when I write in the most "simplistic of form",

English and rudimentary Spanish are my only languages; unfortunately, neither is the language in which you attempt to write.

& you couldn't even calculate with "basic maths" that your inertia front legs only support is not possible & DO DO & you wish me to step it up a notch past your level of comprehension,

Admittedly, I cannot comprehend gibberish: please try to write in English.

DON'T TEMP ME TEN GALLON or I "will" right in a scientific stile & format THAT WILL MAKE YOU LOOK EVEN SILLIER THEN YOU ALL READY DO. ;)

While I can be made to look silly in many ways, writing in the English language is not one of the many. On the other hand, your childish attempts to express your thoughts with the written word have relegated you to dungheap of communication. Please avail yourself to the cited references, both of which are available at Amazon. :)
Tom Stovall, CJF
"The only foolish question is the one left unasked."
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RE:Support or leverage 18 Jul 2010 16:18 #57

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Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
jack-mac

lol you cant even comprehend when I write in the most "simplistic of form",

English and rudimentary Spanish are my only languages; unfortunately, neither is the language in which you attempt to write.

& you couldn't even calculate with "basic maths" that your inertia front legs only support is not possible & DO DO & you wish me to step it up a notch past your level of comprehension,

Admittedly, I cannot comprehend gibberish: please try to write in English.

DON'T TEMP ME TEN GALLON or I "will" right in a scientific stile & format THAT WILL MAKE YOU LOOK EVEN SILLIER THEN YOU ALL READY DO. ;)

While I can be made to look silly in many ways, writing in the English language is not one of the many. On the other hand, your childish attempts to express your thoughts with the written word have relegated you to dungheap of communication. Please avail yourself to the cited references, both of which are available at Amazon. :)
produce the mathematics, produce the vectors involved , that supports your inertia front legs only support nonsense & if it adds up I will gladly buy a thousand copies of your suggested reading matter. I'm sure your little nasty gang of forum thugs are just as keen as the rest of us to see the goods.Time to put up or you can simply ............up. Hope you don't have to much difficulty in reading my request its pretty straight forward.
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RE:Support or leverage 18 Jul 2010 16:50 #58

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jack-mac in gray

produce the mathematics, produce the vectors involved , that supports your inertia front legs only support nonsense.

Evidently, communication is not the only skill in which you are deficient, your logic is absurdly childish and more worthy of a middle school playground than this forum. Logically, since YOU assert the front legs provide propulsion (For those who came in late, under the following conditions: at a gallop; after forward motion has been established; radius, carpus, third metacarpal aligned.), it is incumbent on YOU to provide support for YOUR position, not upon the skeptic to attempt to "prove" a negative. Take all the time you need and feel free to cite any scientific paper published for peer review within the last 50 years.

& I will buy a thousand copies of your suggested reading matter.

You would do well to buy a single copy of each suggested reference; then study, assimilate and apply the information contained therein.

I'm sure your little nasty gang of forum thugs are just as keen as the rest of us to see the goods.

Wow! There's a gang of "forum thugs" lurking hereabouts? Who knew?

put up or shut up .


In the unlikely event that you ever grasp the role of logic in discourse, you will then attempt to heed your own advice. Meanwhile, being seated will place your neck in jeopardy. :)
Tom Stovall, CJF
"The only foolish question is the one left unasked."
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RE:Support or leverage 18 Jul 2010 17:25 #59

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Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
jack-mac in gray

produce the mathematics, produce the vectors involved , that supports your inertia front legs only support nonsense.

Evidently, communication is not the only skill in which you are deficient, your logic is absurdly childish and more worthy of a middle school playground than this forum. Logically, since YOU assert the front legs provide propulsion (For those who came in late, under the following conditions: at a gallop; after forward motion has been established; radius, carpus, third metacarpal aligned.), it is incumbent on YOU to provide support for YOUR position, not upon the skeptic to attempt to "prove" a negative. Take all the time you need and feel free to cite any scientific paper published for peer review within the last 50 years.

& I will buy a thousand copies of your suggested reading matter.

You would do well to buy a single copy of each suggested reference; then study, assimilate and apply the information contained therein.

I'm sure your little nasty gang of forum thugs are just as keen as the rest of us to see the goods.

Wow! There's a gang of "forum thugs" lurking hereabouts? Who knew?

put up or shut up .


In the unlikely event that you ever grasp the role of logic in discourse, you will then attempt to heed your own advice. Meanwhile, being seated will place your neck in jeopardy. :)
Obversely your comprehension of my writing is still failing you produce the mathematics & the vectors involved to support your claim
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RE:Support or leverage 18 Jul 2010 17:40 #60

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Its your nonsense theory not mine & it seems you can't even produce the basic mathematics or vectors to support it, & the reason that is, is that its just plain & simple DO DO. gravity the speed the horse is travelling at & the time the limbs are with out a support bass in the stride with the vectors involved clearly show it to be nothing more nothing less then DO DO
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