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TOPIC: Support or leverage

RE:Support or leverage 17 Jul 2010 00:58 #31

  • scruggs1
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cuttinshoer wrote:
Just wondering your thoughts on m/l leverage compared to A/p leverage.

I don't have a blanket answer for that either....and I know this is cliche' but it depends...and this is something that I still struggle to understand as well as I would like...I thought I had it all figured out until about a year ago when Mr. Pethick pointed out some things that made me realize that I don't have a friggin' clue like I thought I did. For example, on my previous post, I stated that I used the lateral support to try to help the horse go more toward the center or medial aspect of its toe...I am not 100% certain that is the right thing to do. For instance, what if the horse is going and dragging lateral toe because it is sore somewhere or compensating for something else? By me encouraging it to go away from lateral toe and to stop dragging, maybe I am making it harder to avoid pain (if there is actually any). My line of thought was that at present what is happening there is a detriment to the foot so I am going to try to help prevent that detriment. Was it right or wrong? I'd like to think I helped, but maybe I should have done just the opposite? I've done this same thing before with success, but that is not to say that this particular case will be successful. I guess I will find out later when/if I go back.
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RE:Support or leverage 17 Jul 2010 01:04 #32

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scruggs1 wrote:
I don't have a blanket answer for that either....and I know this is cliche' but it depends...and this is something that I still struggle to understand as well as I would like...I thought I had it all figured out until about a year ago when Mr. Pethick pointed out some things that made me realize that I don't have a friggin' clue like I thought I did. For example, on my previous post, I stated that I used the lateral support to try to help the horse go more toward the center or medial aspect of its toe...I am not 100% certain that is the right thing to do. For instance, what if the horse is going and dragging lateral toe because it is sore somewhere or compensating for something else? By me encouraging it to go away from lateral toe and to stop dragging, maybe I am making it harder to avoid pain (if there is actually any). My line of thought was that at present what is happening there is a detriment to the foot so I am going to try to help prevent that detriment. Was it right or wrong? I'd like to think I helped, but maybe I should have done just the opposite? I've done this same thing before with success, but that is not to say that this particular case will be successful. I guess I will find out later when/if I go back.

There's only one way to find out, try it. There's to much "it depends" in this business
Justin Decker

"As I see it, good enough is never good enough, it's just an excuse for mediocrity. If every shoeing ain't worth your best shot, you're just going through the motions." Tom Stovall, CJF
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RE:Support or leverage 17 Jul 2010 03:19 #33

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hotrodiesel wrote:
IMO, if you have the shoe centered around COA there is no added leverage.

Dan,
Do you mean center of weight bearing (AKA Duckett's Dot)?
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RE:Support or leverage 17 Jul 2010 03:52 #34

  • Tom Stovall CJF
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hotrodiesel in gray, stuff deleted

I have asked the question on here several times without anyone answering it, but does the foot have to be short to be balanced,

In my experience, the faster a horse goes, the higher it jumps, the harder it stops, and the more acute the lateral movement, the more critical hoof length becomes - inertia can be a female dog to overcome. :)

and why do I see so little lameness, in say an arab, than I do other specific breeeds?


Probably because Arabs are a relatively small horse with a relatively large hoof. Compared to other types/breeds engaged in similar activities, Arabs don't run very fast, jump very high, stop very quick, etc. In contrast, QH and QH-types are relatively large horses with relatively small hooves that do all sorts of quick twitch stuff and are plagued by hoof-related pathologies. YMMV.
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RE:Support or leverage 17 Jul 2010 04:36 #35

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scruggs1 wrote:
Dan,
Do you mean center of weight bearing (AKA Duckett's Dot)?

Yes! I was taught to shoe by the dot. Sorry for the confusion.
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RE:Support or leverage 17 Jul 2010 04:39 #36

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Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
hotrodiesel in gray, stuff deleted

I have asked the question on here several times without anyone answering it, but does the foot have to be short to be balanced,

In my experience, the faster a horse goes, the higher it jumps, the harder it stops, and the more acute the lateral movement, the more critical hoof length becomes - inertia can be a female dog to overcome. :)

and why do I see so little lameness, in say an arab, than I do other specific breeeds?


Probably because Arabs are a relatively small horse with a relatively large hoof. Compared to other types/breeds engaged in similar activities, Arabs don't run very fast, jump very high, stop very quick, etc. In contrast, QH and QH-types are relatively large horses with relatively small hooves that do all sorts of quick twitch stuff and are plagued by hoof-related pathologies. YMMV.

Excellent! Those are very good points.
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RE:Support or leverage 17 Jul 2010 11:20 #37

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Cfarrier wrote:
OK then I will say while I agree with most if not all of the observations I do not fully agree with the conclusion regarding tighter/lax flexors as a causative factor. I believe they are more a result of the conformational relationship between hoof and leg. As long as that support is forward of the leg during stance I think extension will to a larger degree be leverage. If extending to or behind the leg it will be more supportive.
Message to jack Breathe deeply, in hail ,x hail & don't beat up on them think happy thoughts think happy thoughts. The hoof grows forward for a Reason!!!!, that reason is the fulcrum in the hoof capsule is one of shifting nature in cycle from heel landing to break over , meaning transference & dissipation of force, stresses & shock wave away from the centralisation of the coffin joint, utilising the sesamoid (navicular bone) ligaments, cartilage & the deep flexor tendon, there is no support gained what so ever from excessive extending of heels on shoes past that which would never be seen on any horse ,& in doing such you are servilely retarding that ability in function on every heel landing of that horse & causing damage to the joint & ligaments , with out this function of transference & dissipation via this mechanism, The coffin joint over time will deteriorate & fail ,The joint being to small in nature to cope with out this mechanism functioning properly.
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RE:Support or leverage 17 Jul 2010 11:48 #38

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What is the exception to the rule ? answer hind feet ,trailers, kick out heels & penny weights, for Pacers & trotters .
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RE:Support or leverage 17 Jul 2010 11:56 #39

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scruggs1 wrote:
I am certainly not a guru on this subject by any means. I am just pointing out some of the experiences I have had and how I have thought about some of the problems based on what I have read and learned.



A good question that I don’t have a blanket answer for...other than I don’t know.



I don’t know anything about the horse in the other thread other than what is obvious in the picture. I wasn’t there, so I don’t know what they asked Travis to do with it, or how to go about doing it. I think the horse was better off when it left than when it walked up. IMO, any application that takes pressure off the wall at the heel would be beneficial to the heels from a structural integrity standpoint.



Yes. Below is one I did this past Sunday. Never seen the horse before. They indicated possible arthritis in the RH and WLD in the LH...they also said the horse crossfires. First time the horse had shoes since they have owned it. There is a varus deviation on the RH somewhere in or around the PIP. No x-rays. Dragging the toe off the RH.
All I did was brush a few rasp strokes off the medial to get the foot flat and add a little lateral support...nothing fancy, nothing spectacular, (definitely NOT trying to "fix" that deviation) just getting a shoe on so the horse can grow a little foot and have more to work with next time...which is what I imagine Travis had in mind. I am certain there are probably many more things I could have done differently or additionally to help the foot, the leg, etc., but my #1 goal was protecting the nub that was there to get some foot back on it...again, which is what I think Travis was doing. My #2 goal was to fit the shoe around Duckett's Dot in as much as feasible to 'support' the deviated limb.

you forgot to mention #3 goal, buff the living life out of the horn your going to have to work with for the next four or so shoeing's :rolleyes:do you think that foots going to improve shod like that ?
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RE:Support or leverage 17 Jul 2010 12:27 #40

  • Rick Burten
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jack-mac wrote:
The hoof grows forward for a Reason!!!!, that reason is the fulcrum in the hoof capsule is one of shifting nature in cycle from heel landing to break over , meaning transference & dissipation of force, stresses & shock wave away from the centralisation of the coffin joint, utilising the sesamoid (navicular bone) ligaments, cartilage & the deep flexor tendon,
How about horses that grow heel that is more vertical rather than horizontal? And, for those orses where the heel horn tubules have become bent and are growing horizontally, what is the effect the the afore mentioned force, stresses and shock wave on that tissue.
there is no support gained what so ever from excessive extending of heels on shoes past that which would never be seen on any horse ,
Please define 'excessive extending of heels on shoes'. Is it the same for all horses? if not, why not?
& in doing such you are servilely retarding that ability in function on every heel landing of that horse
How? Is that true only if the heels of the shoe are excessively extended? Is one man's excessive another man's correct?
& causing damage to the joint & ligaments , with out this function of transference & dissipation via this mechanism,
Are you aware of any studies that show this phenomenon?
The coffin joint over time will deteriorate & fail ,The joint being to small in nature to cope with out this mechanism functioning properly.
Are you aware of any studies that show this phenomenon? If so, please direct me to them.
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
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RE:Support or leverage 17 Jul 2010 13:25 #41

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Rather then getting in to a tit for tat get no were argument that reflects poorly on both of us , I will let you & others come to your own conclusion by simply viewing & studying for a few moments the coffin joint, navicular deep flexor tendon & where you think the majority of force is being taken on the joint when the heels land at angle & the pasterns no mater what there length articulate downwards & were the bulk of cartilage is that supports the joint in relation to the joint, then tell me what you have concluded Rick PS I apologise for the poor quality pictures

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RE:Support or leverage 17 Jul 2010 13:40 #42

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by the way who wants to give me a job over there so I don't have to keep giving my knowledge away for FREE!!!! :D:D
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RE:Support or leverage 17 Jul 2010 14:32 #43

  • Rick Burten
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Jack,

The concept behind these forums is the free exchange of information, ideas, opinions and knowledge. Everyone who participates does so of their own accord and without thought of compensation. If you want to get paid, then become a clinician or start a consultation service that is fee based. :)
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
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RE:Support or leverage 17 Jul 2010 15:08 #44

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Rick Burten wrote:
Jack,

The concept behind these forums is the free exchange of information, ideas, opinions and knowledge. Everyone who participates does so of their own accord and without thought of compensation. If you want to get paid, then become a clinician or start a consultation service that is fee based. :)
It was an attempt at hummer, I know no one is hiring Trolls, due to the global financial crisis :D so did you take a good look at those pic's ? & put 2 & 2 together of what I'm pointing out ?
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RE:Support or leverage 17 Jul 2010 16:47 #45

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jack-mac wrote:
It was an attempt at hummer,
I know that Jack.
I know no one is hiring Trolls, due to the global financial crisis :D
I've found that trolls seem to be a dime a dozen and if you give them a place under your bridge, they'll be your slave forever. It just so happens I have a bridge under which there is an empty habitat. Its yours for the taking. :)
so did you take a good look at those pic's ? & put 2 & 2 together of what I'm pointing out ?
I did indeed, but my math gives a different answer than does your math. If/when I get my thoughts on the subject better organized, I'll post them.
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
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