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TOPIC: Stifle job

Stifle job 27 Jun 2010 09:16 #1

I got a call, a horse that was sore off hind. Vet said it was the stifle and asked if I could do something. Sure I can!

This is what I proposed the vet we do:

1. Straighten out the AP balance in this horse as the lateral side was low (the foot supinated, I learned a couple of these words by heart and use them every once in a while to show I know what I'm doing. What I need still need to sort out is exactly when to use what word :rolleyes:) I used my wedge pad trick to straighten out the AP in this foot. Notice the position of the shoe on the wedge pad before cutting and tacking it to the shoe. This position of the wedge pad relative to the shoe is vital here to get to a loaded medial toe.

2. Cutting a hole with my 1 1/2" punch to reduce chances on trush develloping.

3. Increase lateral support by widening the lateral heel. By the way usually I forge out the lateral heel and maybe add a hooked trailer. Easy, fast and works great. Now I chose to fuller the heel. I noticed on this board more of you use this trick. In this case I decided to use it because I felt my usual way of doing it could be too much in this case.

4. I squared and tapered the toe to ease breakover. By the way watch the hock when aggressively easing breakover behind. Don't overdo it on a straight hocked horse, you'll get them sore.

This is how it turned out.


Ronald Aalders
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RE:Stifle job 27 Jun 2010 09:22 #2

A maximum of only 5 files?? I need more than that :D

On the foot.......



Ronald Aalders
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RE:Stifle job 27 Jun 2010 15:55 #3

  • Gary Hill
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Ron, do you happen to have some photos of what the lower limb looked like before you applied this shoe? I had a "cow" vet perscripe almost the same thing for a horse last week.
The problem was that this horse was ugly with his right hind (go figure) and the hoof was severely windswept. With the help of 1 1/2 cc of Dormosadan he was a good boy and I had to punch nails almost to the inside web of the shoe kinda like a padded horse. Anyway horse is comfortable for now ,and I am glad because I don't think a wedge would of worked on this one because of how the hoof was so distorted from neglect? Nice job!
"As I see it, winners get the money - while losers talk of "individual goals" and similar stuff." Tom Stovall
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RE:Stifle job 27 Jun 2010 16:27 #4

Sorry Gary no "before" pics. Feet were okish though, a little low on heels and as I said low on lateral side.

I use wedge pads a lot. The big advantage is that they are cheap and come in different angles. Also -and that for me is the biggest pro- wedges provide support all over the foot and are not pushed in the dirt that easily reducing their effect. Unlike a wedge shoe.

Often a windswept horse is pretty ok AP balance wise, or at least not as bad as it looks. It's just the shape of the foot that gives the messy appearance. In fact your looking at a big time solid flare rather than anything else. So in those cases I would stay away from wedges (pads or otherwise) as well. Because AP usually is ok, I would not fool around with lateral extensions either. I would just try and shape and fit the shoe to compensate for the "misalignment" of the hoof.


Ronald Aalders
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RE:Stifle job 27 Jun 2010 16:39 #5

  • Gary Hill
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That foot is almost as bad as the one I worked on. Mine had some medial toe "damage" because of lack of care? I did pretty much the same as you, really boxed that medial toe. Nice job!
"As I see it, winners get the money - while losers talk of "individual goals" and similar stuff." Tom Stovall
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RE:Stifle job 27 Jun 2010 19:25 #6

  • Jack Evers
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The problem was that this horse was ugly with his right hind

I call some of these "cowboy horses" Pretty good with the left front, but the further you get from there, the worse they are and the cowboy never has walked all the way to the back right. Accused a trainer of that once - he said "I only need to pick up one foot to show the owner that he'll pick up a foot". Claimed that if horses had four left front feet, he'd be a horseshoer.
Jack Evers CJF AFA#426

The best things about the good old days -- I wasn't good and I wasn't old.

The older I get, the more horses I shoe, the fewer things that I can absolutely, positively fix.
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RE:Stifle job 27 Jun 2010 19:39 #7

  • Gary Hill
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Jack, I call the right hind, the Forgotten Foot! It goes from alot of so called trainers on down to the newbie owners! I try to start on the right fronts and move to the right hind to kinda get ahold of their mind alittle sometimes.:D
"As I see it, winners get the money - while losers talk of "individual goals" and similar stuff." Tom Stovall
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RE:Stifle job 27 Jun 2010 21:59 #8

  • Mark_Gough
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Great explanation of the problem and how you addressed it Ron. These are the kind of posts that warrant printed copies to keep for future reference.

Thanks for sharing and please continue to do so.

Cheers,
Mark
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RE:Stifle job 27 Jun 2010 23:14 #9

Ronald Aalders wrote:
I got a call, a horse that was sore off hind. Vet said it was the stifle and asked if I could do something. Sure I can!

This is what I proposed the vet we do:

1. Straighten out the AP balance in this horse as the lateral side was low (the foot supinated, I learned a couple of these words by heart and use them every once in a while to show I know what I'm doing. What I need still need to sort out is exactly when to use what word :rolleyes:) I used my wedge pad trick to straighten out the AP in this foot. Notice the position of the shoe on the wedge pad before cutting and tacking it to the shoe. This position of the wedge pad relative to the shoe is vital here to get to a loaded medial toe.

2. Cutting a hole with my 1 1/2" punch to reduce chances on trush develloping.

3. Increase lateral support by widening the lateral heel. By the way usually I forge out the lateral heel and maybe add a hooked trailer. Easy, fast and works great. Now I chose to fuller the heel. I noticed on this board more of you use this trick. In this case I decided to use it because I felt my usual way of doing it could be too much in this case.

4. I squared and tapered the toe to ease breakover. By the way watch the hock when aggressively easing breakover behind. Don't overdo it on a straight hocked horse, you'll get them sore.

This is how it turned out.


Ronald Aalders

You addressed ML- Balance; if I red Your text right. lateral to medial.D to P is also divided by L and M. Otherwise I better go fix a few things:rolleyes:
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RE:Stifle job 28 Jun 2010 01:55 #10

  • scruggs1
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I will preface my response here by saying that I am neutral with the gestalt of the application...neither agreeing, nor disagreeing. I respect your opinion and I do not have a hidden agenda here. What I am interested in is why you chose the following things...more specifically, what, in your opinion, effect do each of these things have on the stifle and associated structures.

Ronald Aalders wrote:
1. Straighten out the AP balance in this horse as the lateral side was low (the foot supinated, I learned a couple of these words by heart and use them every once in a while to show I know what I'm doing. What I need still need to sort out is exactly when to use what word :rolleyes:) I used my wedge pad trick to straighten out the AP in this foot. Notice the position of the shoe on the wedge pad before cutting and tacking it to the shoe. This position of the wedge pad relative to the shoe is vital here to get to a loaded medial toe.

Why...as relative to the action of the stifle? In weak and/or pathologic stifles the leg/foot often rotates/twists to make the point of breakover at the lateral toe. Is this what you are trying to change? Are you loading medial toe for static or dynamic purposes?

Ronald Aalders wrote:
3. Increase lateral support by widening the lateral heel. By the way usually I forge out the lateral heel and maybe add a hooked trailer. Easy, fast and works great. Now I chose to fuller the heel. I noticed on this board more of you use this trick. In this case I decided to use it because I felt my usual way of doing it could be too much in this case.

Why...as relative to the action of the stifle? Is this, again, in effort to hinder lateral twist of the leg/foot thus moving the point of breakover away from lateral toe and more toward medial? If this is your line of thought, is stopping the twist the goal or is repositioning the point of breakover the goal (I realize one follows the other, I am just curious as to how you think about it)...or is the goal the modification of static weight bearing...or something else?

Ronald Aalders wrote:
4. I squared and tapered the toe to ease breakover.

Why...as relative to the action of the stifle? Are you trying to set the square to the medial aspect of the toe?

Ronald Aalders wrote:
By the way watch the hock when aggressively easing breakover behind. Don't overdo it on a straight hocked horse, you'll get them sore.

I have found this to be true, regardless of the conformation of the hock. IME a hock sore horse generally appreciates a proportionate foot with appropriate purchase and sometimes even a heavier shoe...both having the effect of requiring the foot to be in the caudal phase of the stride longer (vs. a light shoe set or modified to increase the point in the stride where the foot leaves and breaks), increasing the extension of the joint, which is contrary to the opinions of many. The proportionate, purchase fit shoe also, theoretically, moves the base of support further under the horse (flexing the hock in the static stance), vs. moving the base caudally (extending the hock in the static stance) when the shoe is moved caudally. Why do you think 'increasing breakover' is detrimental to hock soundness...even if you only think it is in the straight hocked horse? Do you think it is only the straight hocked horse or is this conformation one that exhibits the symptoms associated with 'easing breakover' sooner than a 'normally' conformed hock?

Thanks.
Scruggs Farrier Service
John Scruggs, CJF
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RE:Stifle job 28 Jun 2010 06:38 #11

Juhani Takanen wrote:
You addressed ML- Balance; if I red Your text right. lateral to medial.D to P is also divided by L and M. Otherwise I better go fix a few things:rolleyes:

Uhm, no I addressed AP balance by raising the lateral heel. I agree from a LM point of view both heels will be lifted, but the lateral heel more. (That was the whole idea here :D)


Ronald Aalders
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RE:Stifle job 28 Jun 2010 08:53 #12

scruggs1 wrote:
I will preface my response here by saying that I am neutral with the gestalt of the application...neither agreeing, nor disagreeing. I respect your opinion and I do not have a hidden agenda here. What I am interested in is why you chose the following things...more specifically, what, in your opinion, effect do each of these things have on the stifle and associated structures.

Why...as relative to the action of the stifle? In weak and/or pathologic stifles the leg/foot often rotates/twists to make the point of breakover at the lateral toe. Is this what you are trying to change? Are you loading medial toe for static or dynamic purposes?

Why...as relative to the action of the stifle? Is this, again, in effort to hinder lateral twist of the leg/foot thus moving the point of breakover away from lateral toe and more toward medial? If this is your line of thought, is stopping the twist the goal or is repositioning the point of breakover the goal (I realize one follows the other, I am just curious as to how you think about it)...or is the goal the modification of static weight bearing...or something else?

Why...as relative to the action of the stifle? Are you trying to set the square to the medial aspect of the toe?

I found that even some of the greatest shoers keep looking at feet and legs. A horse is way more. A nice illustration is having someone stand up and have him focus on his own lumbar area. Then ask him to turn his feet in a way that has him "toed out", Charlie Chaplin wise. After that have him turn his "toes in". Most likely -as you will- he'll notice a big difference in strain in his lumbar area.

Likewise in this case by lifting the lateral heel I'm not working the stifle joint in the first place. I'm working the SI joint and the lumbar area.

Obviously increasing the lateral side of a foot will float that side of the foot on the dirt. Overdoing that is easy and will ruin the effect you're trying to achieve. Especially when working with a wedge of somekind that effectively straightens out the AP deviation. Without that wedge, like I would have used on a horse with more lateral heel than this one has, I might have considered increasing lateral width by forging and trailering the lateral heel in stead of fullering it.

From your "why's" I gather you would like some science here. Well, I'm sorry, I know I drive a lot of people crazy by my having to reply I have not too much to offer on that part, other than experience that is. Frankly, my job is to fix horses and -if you allow me to say that- I do ok in that field.

Like I said the why is based on field experience rather than theory. And for me experience is more important than "science". I tried shoeing a horse with a book once but it didn't help none. Maybe I should try I research paper next? I'm kidding here. I fully understand that research, "science", is important if only to allow protocols to be explained to others and have them copied and finally have this profession of ours grow based on sharing of knowledge and reason, rather than on random successes that get promoted as "the way to fix this or that". Bottomline remains until that moment comes I can not do my job if I can only use what is scientifically proven.

By the way I do see this web site as the one way to spread this this experience of ours and have others try and amend it so in the end áll of us benefit. If we keep on sharing our knowlegde and experience (and among us we share a VAST amout of experience) we will in the end be able to turn exprience into scientific relevant reasoning.



I have found this to be true, regardless of the conformation of the hock. IME a hock sore horse generally appreciates a proportionate foot with appropriate purchase and sometimes even a heavier shoe...both having the effect of requiring the foot to be in the caudal phase of the stride longer (vs. a light shoe set or modified to increase the point in the stride where the foot leaves and breaks), increasing the extension of the joint, which is contrary to the opinions of many. The proportionate, purchase fit shoe also, theoretically, moves the base of support further under the horse (flexing the hock in the static stance), vs. moving the base caudally (extending the hock in the static stance) when the shoe is moved caudally. Why do you think 'increasing breakover' is detrimental to hock soundness...even if you only think it is in the straight hocked horse? Do you think it is only the straight hocked horse or is this conformation one that exhibits the symptoms associated with 'easing breakover' sooner than a 'normally' conformed hock?



This is in my opinion has to do with specific action of a hind limb. Lifting the foot off the ground on a hind is way more an upward motion compared to the more rolling motion of the front. The straighter the hock combined with a lot of ease of breakover will reduce action of the stifle and hock to a minimum. That in my opinion has a strong "use it or loose it" effect.


Thanks.

You're welcome ;)


Ronald Aalders
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RE:Stifle job 28 Jun 2010 10:48 #13

Ronald Aalders wrote:
Uhm, no I addressed AP balance by raising the lateral heel. I agree from a LM point of view both heels will be lifted, but the lateral heel more. (That was the whole idea here :D)


Ronald Aalders
yep. and I kinda proved that 30 yrs old glenfiddich won´t help you any if trying to type something...:D
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RE:Stifle job 28 Jun 2010 12:48 #14

Juhani Takanen wrote:
yep. and I kinda proved that 30 yrs old glenfiddich won´t help you any if trying to type something...:D

The best way to type anything! ;)


Ronald Aalders
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RE:Stifle job 28 Jun 2010 14:28 #15

  • Mark_Gough
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Excellent discussion.

I have a horse on the books that presents similar issues in the right hind.

Horse presents significant articular arthritis at the hock. Foot is windswept laterally.

Both Ron and John seem to agree that shoeing in a manner intended to cause the animal to use the lumbar and hock (less "break-over", more purchase, reach deeper, more upward flexion, A/P balance) is in the horses best interest. The net result, as Ron so aptly states, is "use it or lose it".

It is often suggested that when dealing with an arthritic, we want to stabilize the joint, reducing movement as much as possible.

Leaves me wondering which direction is correct. Shoe to enhance use of the limb (heavier shoe, longer base, greater purchase) or shoe to ease/reduce movement (ease breakover, quicken unloading) and subsequent 'wear' on the joints?

In simpler terms, do we want to encourage the horse to use an arthritic joint (longer base of support, greater purchase)?

Cheers,
Mark
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