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TOPIC: Clubfoot problem

RE:Clubfoot problem 18 Jun 2010 15:26 #91

  • beslagsmed
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cuttinshoer wrote:
Because her pelvis is tighter on the left side so she is breaking the foals ribs on the right side causing a club foot. LMFAO!!!!!!!!!!:D:D:p

Thanks alot for clearing that up for me:D
Mikel Dawson, RJF

(Denmark)
What part of "NO" don't you understand!!

Caution: Watch for hoof in mouth disease!!!
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RE:Clubfoot problem 19 Jun 2010 07:39 #92

  • the_unicorn
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Rick Burten wrote:

Managing club feet has many levels. Fixing them is somethiing that has yet too be clinically proven( desmotomies and tenotomies aside). And even then, one could reasonably argue that the surgeries are a management protocol and not a 'fix' per se.


Some are, but the evidence would suggest that your sister is incorrect. Anyone who has dealt with multi-generational maternal, paternal, or both, club feet realizes that the problem can indeed by and often is, genetic.

As usual Rick your multi line quotes make it impossible to reply.

I do agree surgeries are a management protocol but so is shoeing and trimming, the question is which leaves the horse the healthiest. Surgery to correct a biomechanics problem seems misguided. Shoeing if done right can help the horse at the cost of lost bone density if shod long term.

Multi generational club feet being genetic?, I would need to see rads, at foaling and through early life too see if it is the horses genes or the farriers.
Come on Rick you cannot claim club feet is often genetic without rads and correct management, you can only assume that management has not worked.

With Dr. Bistrip's work the cause may genes of big foals from small pelvis mares causing foaling trauma.


If you have seen any studies of wild horses show a completely different palmar wing compared to domestic horses this is due to hoof capsule trimming happening on a daily basis.


Prof Chris Pollit measures hoof capsule growth of desert brumbies at 1.5mm a day, that means a new hoof capsule every 2 months. The wall never gets a chance to pull on the periosteum like a domestic horses does. Sure a fall down the cliffs they run could fracture a pedal bone but not going for a gallop like young thoroughbreds do.


If a horse is born with a club foot does that mean it is not able to improve? I can almost guarantee they have got worse, my point is if they can get worse they are changing due to environment so they can get better given optimum environment.

Post pics of a club foot we can try for an improvement.
Regards
Darren Robertson, MHG

"Specialising in Barefoot trimming, Equine Muscular work for better Biomechanics, Helping horses move to the true form."
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RE:Clubfoot problem 19 Jun 2010 08:27 #93

  • beslagsmed
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Darren,

Maybe you need to do a study (such as Dr. Miller did with trimming), prove your points, then maybe I'll forget about the snake oil.
Mikel Dawson, RJF

(Denmark)
What part of "NO" don't you understand!!

Caution: Watch for hoof in mouth disease!!!
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RE:Clubfoot problem 19 Jun 2010 14:51 #94

  • Rick Burten
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the_unicorn wrote:
As usual Rick your multi line quotes make it impossible to reply.
<deletia>
Darren, why did you repost your post #63? I answered it with my reply at post #77. :rolleyes:

As albert Einstein once noted, 'repeating the same thing over and over again and expecting different results is one kind of insanity', which begs the question.... :)
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
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RE:Clubfoot problem 19 Jun 2010 23:15 #95

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the_unicorn wrote:
The wall never gets a chance to pull on the periosteum like a domestic horses does.

Dude! Are you aware that the pedal bone does not have a periosteum? It has a corium. Try to keep up.

Ruth A Hamilton
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RE:Clubfoot problem 20 Jun 2010 00:44 #96

  • Jaye Perry
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hankhank wrote:
Dude! Are you aware that the pedal bone does not have a periosteum? It has a corium. Try to keep up.

Ruth A Hamilton

All bone has periosteum:rolleyes:
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RE:Clubfoot problem 20 Jun 2010 00:50 #97

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Jaye Perry wrote:
All bone has periosteum:rolleyes:

Yeah but in the coffin bone they changed the name to corium! They want to confuse everybody I think! :cool:
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RE:Clubfoot problem 20 Jun 2010 01:08 #98

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Eric Russell wrote:
Yeah but in the coffin bone they changed the name to corium! They want to confuse everybody I think! :cool:

hesus! essa! pinca cabrone!:cool:
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RE:Clubfoot problem 20 Jun 2010 02:37 #99

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Jaye Perry wrote:
hesus! essa! pinca cabrone!:cool:

Leave it to a barefooter to care about a change in names!
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RE:Clubfoot problem 20 Jun 2010 04:31 #100

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Eric Russell wrote:
Leave it to a barefooter to care about a change in names!

Hoof grooms! Geez, get it right!:D
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RE:Clubfoot problem 20 Jun 2010 05:04 #101

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The distal phalanx, like the sesamoid bones, does not have a periosteal covering, as do most other bones. As a result, its response to injury is somewhat different. Most other bones form a callous and primary union. But in the case of severe injuries, such as a fracture, the coffin bone heals by a fibrous union that infiltrates with calcium over time, making a full recovery somewhat tenuous.

Quote taken from a Farriers Journal, not a barefooters made up cr@p

Leave it to certain farriers to be totally CERTAIN they are always right :rolleyes:
Kim Cassidy
"I still say a church steeple with a lightning rod on top shows a lack of confidence." Doug McLeod
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RE:Clubfoot problem 20 Jun 2010 10:13 #102

  • Red Amor
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:pYep thatzright ay :cool:
Mark Anthony Amor
If we want anymore excrement like that outta you we'll squeese ya head :eek:
Mind how ya go now ;)
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RE:Clubfoot problem 07 Nov 2010 15:03 #103

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Rick Burten wrote:
<deletia>
Darren, why did you repost your post #63? I answered it with my reply at post #77. :rolleyes:

Over worked I guess :)

Any way after a great conference on wild horses at which I got to massage some wild caught horses and show the muscular strain caused by domestic feet does not happen in the wild, I continued the clubby foot case. Here are the pics of the progress.

OK B4 the first trim the horse was given 15ml of oral bute to get to the vet clinic for rads. This short trip caused enough pain that it was obvious the horse could not handle the 7 hours on the float to my rehab centre :(.

So I needed to plan a 1000km round trip to trim the horse ASAP as the vet said there was no way this horse would get better. The first trim was hard as the horse had to very quickly swap feet to alleviate pain. Pedal bone visible through cracks in the sole and sole badly distorted by pressure from the pedal bone. Also had serum leak out of a building abscess in the right fore.

I do not care if you call this a club foot, or a foundered foot or a bad navicular foot, the shape is the same and so is the treatment. For the sake of argument I will call this a club foot based on the lack of preceeding laminitis, the fact that the dorsal wall does not deviate too far from the pedal bone and the sole is thinned under the solar margin.

http://www.nanric.com/Howtotreatclubfeet.asp

If you look on here this would classify as a grade 4 club foot as the heels are as high as the front of the coronet band. Evidently hard to fix :p.


There was a gap of 4 weeks between trims, after the first trim an abscess occurred in the left fore to complicate matters. Horse was uncomfortable for the first 4 weeks due to bone damage and abscesses. The horse was better the second 4 weeks but still sore on some days. She would get active and then pay for it later, there was a lump of proud flesh that was sensitive to pressure, the wet grass cleaned up the proud flesh as normally happens. After the third trim she would walk around happily but no more than a walk.

Before trim 4 which happened 2 weeks late, she was seen trotting happily, The forth trim is the final one in the pics. I tried to video the horse for Equitana a big horse expo in Melbourne and she would not leave me alone and ran around the paddock like she was connected to me so the video is a bit close up.

The horse is now happily chasing and beating up on the younger horses in the paddock and playing hard to catch.

The order of the pics is trim 1, trim 3, final trim and then rads as well as the hoof a few days before the rads. Trim 2 failed to photograph due to cold morning and low batteries. If you look closely at the first and last pic you can see there is less than 2 weeks between the pics and you can see how much I removed in the first trim. Trim 2 I feel was not as trimmed as it should have been though I might have had to leave tissue above an abscess exit point.

So before anyone does the wrong thing with club feet, have a look at these pics and understand that club feet grade 1 through to 4 are easily reversed by good hoof trimming without the need for surgery or fancy contraptions on the feet.

The owner paid 5 figures for this horse without checking the feet because it was a cheap deal. When something seems to good to be true, it probably is. If the horse was worth less money the vet would have put it down at the clinic. The horse is fine after 12 weeks of new growth and has good sole depth as well as much better palmar angle.

The unfortunate thing for the client is now that we have proved we can save these horses, she had in years gone by 2 previous cases with less damage that are now buried on the property.


The reason we can do this rehab work, is because of a lot of research into how the horse weight is transfered to the ground. Building on prof. Bowkers work that the wall is not the primary load bearing structure. We have taken this to the full extension and worked on the principle that the pedal bone is the only structure that can support the horses weight and that at full load it must be level with the ground. If it is not level demineralisation will occur in an attempt by the body to make the bone level with the forces.

Knowing how the bone is connected to the wall we can trim away the parts of the wall causing the problem. Do not trim heels on club feet as that will increase the load on the bone at the quarters. Scoop out quarters, bars and frog if needed and you can reverse just about any painful problem.
Regards
Darren Robertson, MHG

"Specialising in Barefoot trimming, Equine Muscular work for better Biomechanics, Helping horses move to the true form."
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RE:Clubfoot problem 07 Nov 2010 15:15 #104

  • cuttinshoer
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Looks more like a laminitic than a club foot. All the picture still show a club foot from the outside.
Justin Decker

"As I see it, good enough is never good enough, it's just an excuse for mediocrity. If every shoeing ain't worth your best shot, you're just going through the motions." Tom Stovall, CJF
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RE:Clubfoot problem 07 Nov 2010 15:31 #105

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cuttinshoer wrote:
Looks more like a laminitic than a club foot. All the picture still show a club foot from the outside.

Mechanical laminitis and remodling because of the club foot alignment?
Chad Rice, CF
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