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TOPIC: Clubfoot problem

RE:Clubfoot problem 14 Nov 2010 11:09 #121

  • Ray_Knightley
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How do you trim the Bones?
If i shod a Horse like your Pictures in our Area ,it would Be the last Time the Client calls. The Rest of the mistakes forgotten, ie Wrong Shoe for the Job etc.
The fact the the Shoes is Not in Contact with the Hoof would Be the First Thing they would See .If i would Try and sell them some Story of Why , they would just say that they have heard it all before and get someone better for the Job.

That Shoe has moved back Aswell ,150 km is Not much for say 6 Weeks really you Know.
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RE:Clubfoot problem 14 Nov 2010 13:03 #122

  • jack-mac
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the_unicorn wrote:
Could you please explain this nonsense ? feel fee to take your time. Then Ill explain some genetic anatomical & biological truth based fact to you. On & about club feet & Prove with out a doubt in the world. That what you have stated on the subject of club feet is nothing more then, misleading dishonest bare foot trimming piffle . Do you even know the differance between a club foot & one affected by laminitis .Do you even know the differance between a club foot & a severely contracted hoof .Personally I know you dont. Due to the fact of theses silly claims you have made of Club Foot reversal.

I missed this comment B4 the first reply so I will leave you with the photos and the fact that any good farrier can do this shod or barefoot. I am not here to promote barefoot just smart hoof care. I have worked on a good endurance horse with a club foot, so while I was shoeing the horse for endurance events I was also able to set the hoof up to reverse the club foot. If anyone with skills learned from a short shoeing course can improve club feet in endurance horses in work, then you can be sure what you thought you knew about club feet might need to be revised.

I am happy to drop into your area and demonstrate how it works.

You should look at Ric Redden and others work on club feet and how wild hooves show no sign of so called genetic club feet, and don't think that is because they all died off as all american and australian wild horses are from domestic stock.

If you have different info from Ric and the wild horses I would be suspicious of the usefulness of it. I know in managing domestic horses Ric has not achieved the level that he sees in the wild but others can do better and the info will spread around.

According to Baron's wishes I will not be drawn into rants about right and wrong I will provide as much evidence on how things work as can be done and let you draw your own conclusions. If you don't get what I am talking about then the next young guy along learning to shoe or trim will pick up the work.[/QUOTE]

So your claiming horses are not born with club feet :rolleyes: Do you know anything about groth plates ? do you Know anything about genetics ? If Ric Redden work is What your basing your claims on LMFAO. Then I think you Need to find someone a little more educated ;)
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RE:Clubfoot problem 14 Nov 2010 13:14 #123

  • the_unicorn
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Ray_Knightley wrote:
How do you trim the Bones?
If i shod a Horse like your Pictures in our Area ,it would Be the last Time the Client calls. The Rest of the mistakes forgotten, ie Wrong Shoe for the Job etc.
The fact the the Shoes is Not in Contact with the Hoof would Be the First Thing they would See .If i would Try and sell them some Story of Why , they would just say that they have heard it all before and get someone better for the Job.

That Shoe has moved back Aswell ,150 km is Not much for say 6 Weeks really you Know.

Umm 160km at 80km per day, not 6 weeks, this is a competing endurance horse. The interesting thing is that the shoes would wear through at 180km when shod the old way. The same type of shoe lasts 250km when shod for balance and performance.


As for the gap, the previous farrier did not leave the space required between the shoe and hoof wall and caused the horse to become lame and perform badly. By shoeing in a fashion that will allow the hoof to reform means that the horse is more comfortable and able to exercise well. This is why pain and club feet are linked if the horse cannot use all of its foot it will not.

The normal event farrier was a bit bemused by the work, the owner told him how much better the horse moved when the problems were fixed. A traditional horseshoe just does not see the reasons to shoe for hoof reform. Lyle Bergman wrote a book on the subject 17 years ago and very few people have learned what he had to teach. I found lyles work through a horseshoer that decided to learn more. What I teach is very similar to Lyle, it is not radically new stuff just different.
Regards
Darren Robertson, MHG

"Specialising in Barefoot trimming, Equine Muscular work for better Biomechanics, Helping horses move to the true form."
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RE:Clubfoot problem 14 Nov 2010 13:39 #124

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the_unicorn wrote:
Umm 160km at 80km per day, not 6 weeks, this is a competing endurance horse. The interesting thing is that the shoes would wear through at 180km when shod the old way. The same type of shoe lasts 250km when shod for balance and performance.


As for the gap, the previous farrier did not leave the space required between the shoe and hoof wall and caused the horse to become lame and perform badly. By shoeing in a fashion that will allow the hoof to reform means that the horse is more comfortable and able to exercise well. This is why pain and club feet are linked if the horse cannot use all of its foot it will not.

The normal event farrier was a bit bemused by the work, the owner told him how much better the horse moved when the problems were fixed. A traditional horseshoe just does not see the reasons to shoe for hoof reform. Lyle Bergman wrote a book on the subject 17 years ago and very few people have learned what he had to teach. I found lyles work through a horseshoer that decided to learn more. What I teach is very similar to Lyle, it is not radically new stuff just different.
Ill be looking you up bud. I feel a prosecution coming your way for cruelty when I catch up with you.
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RE:Clubfoot problem 14 Nov 2010 13:42 #125

  • the_unicorn
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DeniseMc wrote:
Darren,
You would be doing yourself and this board a favor if you could post radiographs to go along with the "last trim" photo from post #103. I'm sure folks would like to see radiographically the realignment (and the sole depth) because from what I'm reading here no one believes you.
Thanks.

I can tell you the sole depth is greater than 8mm just by digging at the old damage. If you know how to read hairlines you can see the realignment in the heel and quarters region. As the palmar wings get closer to the ground the tip comes up off the ground. I will see what I can do about radiographs, I also would like to see how much there is left to realign. I do a large number of these with varying levels of success, this is relatively a fast recovery which is lucky because the owner is easily stressed. I am away for the next week at an expo. If the owner can get radiographs and email them I will post them when I get back.

I don't really expect people to believe me outright, I would like people to think about why it might work and to try just a little bit. Having worked with farriers that have tried this on their own without help it was a lack of help that slowed their work. If they had seen photos of how a foot can change they would have been more confident and more accurate in their work.

Even just a couple of mm of change will make an instant improvement in the muscles of the horse, this is measurable on radiographs by any vet or farrier that wants to try for improvement.

I will be putting up some videos of the muscles to look for and the instant change achieved by corrective shoeing.

Anyway I will back in a week or so with more, hopefully someone gives it a go and can discuss the changes.
Regards
Darren Robertson, MHG

"Specialising in Barefoot trimming, Equine Muscular work for better Biomechanics, Helping horses move to the true form."
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RE:Clubfoot problem 14 Nov 2010 13:54 #126

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the_unicorn wrote:
I can tell you the sole depth is greater than 8mm just by digging at the old damage. If you know how to read hairlines you can see the realignment in the heel and quarters region. As the palmar wings get closer to the ground the tip comes up off the ground. I will see what I can do about radiographs, I also would like to see how much there is left to realign. I do a large number of these with varying levels of success, this is relatively a fast recovery which is lucky because the owner is easily stressed. I am away for the next week at an expo. If the owner can get radiographs and email them I will post them when I get back.

I don't really expect people to believe me outright, I would like people to think about why it might work and to try just a little bit. Having worked with farriers that have tried this on their own without help it was a lack of help that slowed their work. If they had seen photos of how a foot can change they would have been more confident and more accurate in their work.

Even just a couple of mm of change will make an instant improvement in the muscles of the horse, this is measurable on radiographs by any vet or farrier that wants to try for improvement.

I will be putting up some videos of the muscles to look for and the instant change achieved by corrective shoeing.

Anyway I will back in a week or so with more, hopefully someone gives it a go and can discuss the changes.
What Expo ? You wont mind some constructive criticism from a Expo goer.
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RE:Clubfoot problem 14 Nov 2010 14:03 #127

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http://www.barefoothooves.com/trimmer.php
Yer Your A legend all right .
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RE:Clubfoot problem 14 Nov 2010 14:08 #128

  • solidrockshoer
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Darren,



I'm a little confused. You have stated that the club foot is not in response to pull on the ddft.
But since barefoot has shown that laminitis and founder are two separate events and studies have shown that as the pedal bone nears zero palmar angle the pull of the DDFT is significantly reduced it is hard to see rotation being linked to DDFT so called contraction.

You have also stated the club foot is a response to pain causing the muscle to pull on the ddft.
The other mechanical part is that the flexor muscle is the trigger for tension in the DDFT

How does gutting the quarter relieve pain? For the coffin bone to push back down as you suggest, you would first have to relieve the pain you suggest is causing this.

To reverse a club foot heavily trim the quarters and let the horses weight push the bones back down into the foot.

The hoof capsule has no problem distorting in all areas from heel to heel. Why do you feel the quarters are any different? If the bone was trying to drop in the foot the quarters, being the weakest part of the hoof capsule, should really give way, no?
As for the gap, the previous farrier did not leave the space required between the shoe and hoof wall and caused the horse to become lame and perform badly.
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RE:Clubfoot problem 14 Nov 2010 14:15 #129

the_unicorn wrote:
Umm 160km at 80km per day, not 6 weeks, this is a competing endurance horse. The interesting thing is that the shoes would wear through at 180km when shod the old way. The same type of shoe lasts 250km when shod for balance and performance.


As for the gap, the previous farrier did not leave the space required between the shoe and hoof wall and caused the horse to become lame and perform badly. By shoeing in a fashion that will allow the hoof to reform means that the horse is more comfortable and able to exercise well. This is why pain and club feet are linked if the horse cannot use all of its foot it will not.

The normal event farrier was a bit bemused by the work, the owner told him how much better the horse moved when the problems were fixed. A traditional horseshoe just does not see the reasons to shoe for hoof reform. Lyle Bergman wrote a book on the subject 17 years ago and very few people have learned what he had to teach. I found lyles work through a horseshoer that decided to learn more. What I teach is very similar to Lyle, it is not radically new stuff just different.

Huh?

Oh, and FYI, the name is Bergeleen, not Bergman. You must have studied him in depth :rolleyes:.
Rick Shepherd

Although we know what we believe, we may only believe what we know. Dr William Moyers
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RE:Clubfoot problem 14 Nov 2010 19:44 #130

  • Ray_Knightley
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jack-mac wrote:
http://www.barefoothooves.com/trimmer.php
Yer Your A legend all right .

We have a saying here ,"Hair Crack in the Bowl"
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RE:Clubfoot problem 14 Nov 2010 23:31 #131

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Just some pics and and album to look at

http://picasaweb.google.com/jandrinkwater/LucyFounder#
Regards
Darren Robertson, MHG

"Specialising in Barefoot trimming, Equine Muscular work for better Biomechanics, Helping horses move to the true form."
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RE:Clubfoot problem 14 Nov 2010 23:49 #132

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Part 2

The surgery one happened because a hock injury that led to a club foot forming so the vets immediately operated rather than let the horse grow a normal hoof again. One of my horses did the same with a hind and with good trimming the hoof is normal. This surgery was not necessary and led to the DDFT and suspensory becoming connected. If I pick up the opposite hind this foot does not touch except at the toe.

Damn it seems the filenames go missing, the first 4 are a colt that has a badly twisted leg after barefoot trimming to recover from founder. The unbalanced hoof led to bad skewing. I could not trim the club foot out until I fixed the barefoot trimming.

The next is a foundered foot that is 45 degrees rotated, rads first then second trim then 5th trim.

The next is a left clubby foot that was grade 4 plus the hoof was close to vertical and the toe splintered off along the ground.

Next is surgery and the last is supporting limb laminitis (Lucy)


If any one else has club feet photos before and after they are fixed put em up.
Regards
Darren Robertson, MHG

"Specialising in Barefoot trimming, Equine Muscular work for better Biomechanics, Helping horses move to the true form."
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RE:Clubfoot problem 14 Nov 2010 23:56 #133

What, no pictures of you sitting on the milk crate?
Matthew Kornegay.

"The beast in me is caged by frail and fragile bars." -
-- Johnny Cash
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RE:Clubfoot problem 15 Nov 2010 00:04 #134

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You seem to be making a lot of comments about what traditional farriers do or don't do. We all approach issues a bit differently, and none of us is perfect. I don't think I get the big deal in your mechanical approach to a club foot.

As you "specialize in research", I am sure you understand the difference between anecdotal case studies and scientific hypothesis. Do you have any data? Do you have anything scientific to support your approach?
P
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RE:Clubfoot problem 15 Nov 2010 00:05 #135

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the_unicorn wrote:
Just some pics and and album to look at

http://picasaweb.google.com/jandrinkwater/LucyFounder#

In this album she thanks her farrier John Gorman.
Chris Hadel (530)559-1160 "practice makes better" when you don't spend too much time practicing the same old mistakes
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