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TOPIC: Clubfoot problem

RE:Clubfoot problem 07 Nov 2010 15:55 #106

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chad rice wrote:
Mechanical laminitis and remodling because of the club foot alignment?

Or from misalignment to make it look pleasing to the eye.:D
Justin Decker

"As I see it, good enough is never good enough, it's just an excuse for mediocrity. If every shoeing ain't worth your best shot, you're just going through the motions." Tom Stovall, CJF
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RE:Clubfoot problem 08 Nov 2010 09:02 #107

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chad rice wrote:
Mechanical laminitis and remodling because of the club foot alignment?

Yes I would agree that it is more like mechanical founder IE bad stresses on the whole foot which would lead to tearing of the laminae. The laminitis part would be a small part, the bone remodelling comes from the angle, the dorsal wall is above 80 degrees at the coronet.

The club foot is always closely related to a foundered foot. So I would still call this a club foot but a very bad one.

To provide some more info this has been going on for 6 years or so, the horse was always shod for summer to try and keep her moving and stop the abscessing with some effect.

The horse is 10 and of quarter horse breeding. Another younger mare bought at the same time was headed the same way. Very high heels absolutely massive extensor muscles trying to keep the tips of the pedal bones up. She had the same depression in the sole at the solar margin from the physical rotation of long heels.

The younger mare had achieved more the a walk the day she arrived and since then she had only walked every where. After the first trim I asked if the mare had run yet, Nope. After the second trim nope, after the third trim the answer was she must have she is wet from head to tail. After being put in a new paddock the has gone flat out down the fence line which vanishes into a weed covered dam. She was going so fast she hit the middle of the dam and went under, the horse hates water and thought the weed was grass. The 4th trim she jumped 4 foot off the ground and took off for the fence line.

I don't know wether an upright foot with no dorsal dishing should be called a club foot but the pressure internally will still erode pedal bone.

Here is a trick to try, people are of the opinion that a club foot and the the low foot can never be made the same size again as the difference is so great it will never match. Having measured recovering club feet I am finding that the club foot is only a couple of percentage points narrower than the flat foot. Before starting to fix them the physical width is not very different, what we see is the width of the coronet on the clubby foot is wider than the the flat foot due to the high bone position. this makes the walls of the club foot upright making us think the foot is narrower than it is. The bone does not vary in size much so logic means that the total width of the hoof at the ground should not vary much.

To reverse a club foot heavily trim the quarters and let the horses weight push the bones back down into the foot. The only warning is to make sure the horse can stand uphill comfortably before trimming to make sure the 10-20 degrees rotation change will not strain the ligaments. I would also be careful about changing rapidly a horse living on very steep land as their ligaments are more tuned to one position.

Anyway have fun trying these methods of reversing club feet and let everyone know how it goes. Just remember heel height must be greater than the quarters especially if the coronet band has a sharp rise in it indicating a club foot.
Regards
Darren Robertson, MHG

"Specialising in Barefoot trimming, Equine Muscular work for better Biomechanics, Helping horses move to the true form."
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RE:Clubfoot problem 09 Nov 2010 16:45 #108

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the_unicorn wrote:
Yes I would agree that it is more like mechanical founder IE bad stresses on the whole foot which would lead to tearing of the laminae. The laminitis part would be a small part, the bone remodelling comes from the angle, the dorsal wall is above 80 degrees at the coronet.

The club foot is always closely related to a foundered foot. So I would still call this a club foot but a very bad one.

To provide some more info this has been going on for 6 years or so, the horse was always shod for summer to try and keep her moving and stop the abscessing with some effect.

The horse is 10 and of quarter horse breeding. Another younger mare bought at the same time was headed the same way. Very high heels absolutely massive extensor muscles trying to keep the tips of the pedal bones up. She had the same depression in the sole at the solar margin from the physical rotation of long heels.

The younger mare had achieved more the a walk the day she arrived and since then she had only walked every where. After the first trim I asked if the mare had run yet, Nope. After the second trim nope, after the third trim the answer was she must have she is wet from head to tail. After being put in a new paddock the has gone flat out down the fence line which vanishes into a weed covered dam. She was going so fast she hit the middle of the dam and went under, the horse hates water and thought the weed was grass. The 4th trim she jumped 4 foot off the ground and took off for the fence line.

I don't know wether an upright foot with no dorsal dishing should be called a club foot but the pressure internally will still erode pedal bone.

Here is a trick to try, people are of the opinion that a club foot and the the low foot can never be made the same size again as the difference is so great it will never match. Having measured recovering club feet I am finding that the club foot is only a couple of percentage points narrower than the flat foot. Before starting to fix them the physical width is not very different, what we see is the width of the coronet on the clubby foot is wider than the the flat foot due to the high bone position. this makes the walls of the club foot upright making us think the foot is narrower than it is. The bone does not vary in size much so logic means that the total width of the hoof at the ground should not vary much.

To reverse a club foot heavily trim the quarters and let the horses weight push the bones back down into the foot. The only warning is to make sure the horse can stand uphill comfortably before trimming to make sure the 10-20 degrees rotation change will not strain the ligaments. I would also be careful about changing rapidly a horse living on very steep land as their ligaments are more tuned to one position.

Anyway have fun trying these methods of reversing club feet and let everyone know how it goes. Just remember heel height must be greater than the quarters especially if the coronet band has a sharp rise in it indicating a club foot.
The club foot is always closely related to a foundered foot. Really? Please explain that.
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RE:Clubfoot problem 10 Nov 2010 00:16 #109

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To reverse a club foot heavily trim the quarters and let the horses weight push the bones back down into the foot. The only warning is to make sure the horse can stand uphill comfortably before trimming to make sure the 10-20 degrees rotation change will not strain the ligaments. I would also be careful about changing rapidly a horse living on very steep land as their ligaments are more tuned to one position.
Could you please explain this nonsense ? feel fee to take your time. Then Ill explain some genetic anatomical & biological truth based fact to you. On & about club feet & Prove with out a doubt in the world. That what you have stated on the subject of club feet is nothing more then, misleading dishonest bare foot trimming piffle . Do you even know the differance between a club foot & one affected by laminitis .Do you even know the differance between a club foot & a severely contracted hoof .Personally I know you dont. Due to the fact of theses silly claims you have made of Club Foot reversal.
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RE:Clubfoot problem 10 Nov 2010 01:06 #110

Mr "Master Hoof Groom"

As much as it pains me to agree with Jack, it appears that he has your number.

His statement "what you have stated on the subject of club feet is nothing more then, misleading dishonest bare foot trimming piffle" is acutely appropriate.
Rick Shepherd

Although we know what we believe, we may only believe what we know. Dr William Moyers
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RE:Clubfoot problem 14 Nov 2010 04:24 #111

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jack-mac wrote:
The club foot is always closely related to a foundered foot. Really? Please explain that.

Hi,

Glad you asked, A club foot has a dorsal dish due to forces consciously applied to the DDFT because of a pain response in the hoof, this helps to drive the tip of the pedal bone downward. In the old days people thought it was the pull of the DDFT that was the cause of rotation. But since barefoot has shown that laminitis and founder are two separate events and studies have shown that as the pedal bone nears zero palmar angle the pull of the DDFT is significantly reduced it is hard to see rotation being linked to DDFT so called contraction. This change is conscious and designed to limit pain.

The other mechanical part is that the flexor muscle is the trigger for tension in the DDFT. IE: if the muscle is relaxed then there is no tension in the DDFT. If the hoof is sore then the horses repsonse is to transfer weight to the toe by tightening the flexor muscle then the triceps and then the seratus cervicus to transfer weight forward in the hoof capsule. This muscular change is the same for Club feet, foundered feet or navicular feet. If you trim to make the hoof pain free then the club foot, foundered foot or navicular foot will grow a normal hoof capsule.

We figured this out by comparing the horses own response to the feet problems then trim the foot according to what the horse wants.

40 degrees rotation from club feet or laminitis that led to founder is fixed the same way. 60 degrees rotation is possible to fix too, though the shire is going to be tough.
Regards
Darren Robertson, MHG

"Specialising in Barefoot trimming, Equine Muscular work for better Biomechanics, Helping horses move to the true form."
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RE:Clubfoot problem 14 Nov 2010 04:49 #112

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Could you please explain this nonsense ? feel fee to take your time. Then Ill explain some genetic anatomical & biological truth based fact to you. On & about club feet & Prove with out a doubt in the world. That what you have stated on the subject of club feet is nothing more then, misleading dishonest bare foot trimming piffle . Do you even know the differance between a club foot & one affected by laminitis .Do you even know the differance between a club foot & a severely contracted hoof .Personally I know you dont. Due to the fact of theses silly claims you have made of Club Foot reversal.[/QUOTE]

I missed this comment B4 the first reply so I will leave you with the photos and the fact that any good farrier can do this shod or barefoot. I am not here to promote barefoot just smart hoof care. I have worked on a good endurance horse with a club foot, so while I was shoeing the horse for endurance events I was also able to set the hoof up to reverse the club foot. If anyone with skills learned from a short shoeing course can improve club feet in endurance horses in work, then you can be sure what you thought you knew about club feet might need to be revised.

I am happy to drop into your area and demonstrate how it works.

You should look at Ric Redden and others work on club feet and how wild hooves show no sign of so called genetic club feet, and don't think that is because they all died off as all american and australian wild horses are from domestic stock.

If you have different info from Ric and the wild horses I would be suspicious of the usefulness of it. I know in managing domestic horses Ric has not achieved the level that he sees in the wild but others can do better and the info will spread around.

According to Baron's wishes I will not be drawn into rants about right and wrong I will provide as much evidence on how things work as can be done and let you draw your own conclusions. If you don't get what I am talking about then the next young guy along learning to shoe or trim will pick up the work.
Regards
Darren Robertson, MHG

"Specialising in Barefoot trimming, Equine Muscular work for better Biomechanics, Helping horses move to the true form."
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RE:Clubfoot problem 14 Nov 2010 04:50 #113

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the_unicorn wrote:
Hi,

Glad you asked, A club foot has a dorsal dish due to forces consciously applied to the DDFT because of a pain response in the hoof, this helps to drive the tip of the pedal bone downward. In the old days people thought it was the pull of the DDFT that was the cause of rotation. But since barefoot has shown that laminitis and founder are two separate events and studies have shown that as the pedal bone nears zero palmar angle the pull of the DDFT is significantly reduced it is hard to see rotation being linked to DDFT so called contraction. This change is conscious and designed to limit pain.

The other mechanical part is that the flexor muscle is the trigger for tension in the DDFT. IE: if the muscle is relaxed then there is no tension in the DDFT. If the hoof is sore then the horses repsonse is to transfer weight to the toe by tightening the flexor muscle then the triceps and then the seratus cervicus to transfer weight forward in the hoof capsule. This muscular change is the same for Club feet, foundered feet or navicular feet. If you trim to make the hoof pain free then the club foot, foundered foot or navicular foot will grow a normal hoof capsule.

wantsWe figured this out by comparing the horses own response to the feet problems then trim the foot according to what the horse .

40 degrees rotation from club feet or laminitis that led to founder is fixed the same way. 60 degrees rotation is possible to fix too, though the shire is going to be tough.

Who is "Barefoot"? Which studies? Who is "We" (got a mouse in your pocket?)?
Chris Hadel (530)559-1160 "practice makes better" when you don't spend too much time practicing the same old mistakes
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RE:Clubfoot problem 14 Nov 2010 05:40 #114

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Darren,

Do you or don't you shoe horses? Or do you restrict your practice to trimming only?

Baron Tayler
“Suppose you were an ******. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself.”
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RE:Clubfoot problem 14 Nov 2010 06:45 #115

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the_unicorn wrote:

You should look at Ric Redden and others work on club feet and how wild hooves show no sign of so called genetic club feet, and don't think that is because they all died off as all american and australian wild horses are from domestic stock.

If you have different info from Ric and the wild horses I would be suspicious of the usefulness of it. I know in managing domestic horses Ric has not achieved the level that he sees in the wild but others can do better and the info will spread around.

Are you very familiar with Dr. Reddon ? Why would you be suspicious of information he might disseminate? What do you really know of his management achievements; and by what criteria would you judge them?
Chris Hadel (530)559-1160 "practice makes better" when you don't spend too much time practicing the same old mistakes
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RE:Clubfoot problem 14 Nov 2010 06:46 #116

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Darren can't come to the computer right now........
He's flying his private helicopter to his private cruiser so he can sail to his private island that he purchased with all the money he made on the quiet reversing all them club feet.:o
Sorry, but I could not help myself.;)

Glenn
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RE:Clubfoot problem 14 Nov 2010 07:28 #117

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In the corner NOW:p;)
Mark Anthony Amor
If we want anymore excrement like that outta you we'll squeese ya head :eek:
Mind how ya go now ;)
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RE:Clubfoot problem 14 Nov 2010 09:47 #118

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Cyber Farrier wrote:
Darren,

Do you or don't you shoe horses? Or do you restrict your practice to trimming only?

Baron Tayler

I think you have asked this question before :) but the rules are if you don't shoe horse's don't post here.

I do shoe horses when they need to be shod, no more no less. I just work on fixing problems the best way I can find from talking to researchers and farriers as well as trimmers.

I have attached 3 photos of shoeing the club foot horse done by me. How do you know it is by me, because no one else would attempt the tricks in these photos at this point in time. Compare the coronet band shape in photo 1 then 3. Photo 3 was taken after 160km of competitive riding, I wont say I am the best shoer in the world but adequate enough for serious competition. And who else would have soft hands from wearing trimming gloves :p


My speciality is research and bio-mechanics. I learned how to shoe so I could try and rehab horses before their shoes came off. My old farrier texts from 200 years ago state that shoes must be removed after 6 months to allow the hoof to return to a normal shape. I am not in the camp of shoeing horses non stop all year round because that is what we have always done so it must be right. I prefer the old fashioned farrier that the shoes go on to get the horse safely through a task then they come off again to help prolong the horses useful life. Farriers who see horses after I have rehabed them prefer to leave them without shoes because their feet are so good. It is only some farriers that insist a working horse must be shod all of the time no matter what.

I have had arguments with farriers who want a horse to go barefoot and I will insist it be shod until the problems are reduced.

The way I shoe will be different to the old timers because I do not have a load of history to stick too. I work with what the horse needs and I avoid the new fads of New balance shoes etc as I shoe to the structures I see not the current toe length.

I even use plastic shoes for some horses, which amused the hell out of the college teaching farrier. He made some reference to a new kind of hell for those who use plastic shoes. I think it is a reference to an older joke about some farriers before plastic was invented.

I have shown other farriers how to change their trimming style prior to shoeing to help reduce club feet and navicular feet. Some people are willing to try and learn new stuff, if it works then hey they have a new tool. If it does not work then they have learned something anyway.

I have some photos and videos of how I work and the success that comes from good knowledge and these will be used to demonstrate I don't talk out my *rse as some would say. I plan to travel a lot soon so maybe we can meet up and chat. Feel free to ask anything about the photos posted now or earlier as I am only too happy to communicate what I am doing. Any critiques of the shoeing would be interesting to read too.
Regards
Darren Robertson, MHG

"Specialising in Barefoot trimming, Equine Muscular work for better Biomechanics, Helping horses move to the true form."
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RE:Clubfoot problem 14 Nov 2010 10:10 #119

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150km trying to get Away?:D
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RE:Clubfoot problem 14 Nov 2010 10:29 #120

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AussieOne wrote:
Darren can't come to the computer right now........
He's flying his private helicopter to his private cruiser so he can sail to his private island that he purchased with all the money he made on the quiet reversing all them club feet.:o
Sorry, but I could not help myself.;)

Glenn

Yeah thanks glenn, I have been out working on the weekend and no there is no helicopter. I wish there was sometimes, driving 7 hours out to fix a horse and 7 hours back is not conducive to making money.

The one in the earlier photos was 5 hours away. Damn why can't the hard ones be closer.

I do not considering it reversing club feet more trimming them correctly, if everyone trimmed correctly we would be left with a very small number of horse with neck injuries or feet problems that will induce the formation of a club foot.

I think most people forget that the boney column is not damaged by laminitis or club feet so the look of these feet is due to the trim applied. This means it is a man made problem. Someone stated that these 2 problems are isolated from each other without stating why. Contracted heels comes from a lack of weight bearing, high heels come from a lack of weight bearing. Rotation happens because the quarters are higher than the toe. Trim the quarters to match the way the toe is and there you have a foot minus rotation wether it was from the laminae breaking down at the toe or the heels rising.

Trim the boney column to be normal and a normal hoof capsule will grow.

I would much prefer people do their best for the horse, then I would not need a helicopter :)
Regards
Darren Robertson, MHG

"Specialising in Barefoot trimming, Equine Muscular work for better Biomechanics, Helping horses move to the true form."
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