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TOPIC: Frog ...Blood flow??

RE:Frog ...Blood flow?? 12 Jan 2010 18:59 #31

  • Ray_Knightley
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www.de.wikipedia.org/wiki/mutterkorn

Was this in that donkeys Feed??


Opps thats in German sorry ,Just click the English on the left hand side
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RE:Frog ...Blood flow?? 12 Jan 2010 20:25 #32

  • Gary Hill
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Gary_Miller wrote:
I don't believe it has anything to do with constant pressure. Your theory suggests that the pressure stops the blood flow, which would cause a pressure buildup on the artery side of the system, with no new blood flowing to the tissue. This would cause the tissue to start dying due to the lack of oxgen. What happens when a horse is standing it the blood flowing, back up the leg, slows down due to the force of gravity, thus causing the blood to pool in the tissue. Thus causing the swelling we see in stall ridden horses. The samething happens to humans if the stand with out movement, if you add diabetes to the equation it worsens.

Movement helps because the consent constricting and un-constricting of the muscles helps move the blood out of the capillaries and back into the vessels on the way to the heart to be resupplied with oxygen. Since the horses hoof does not have very large muscles the compression that takes place with in the hoof durning movement is what moves the blood out of the hoof and back up the leg.

Actually I have seen no difference between those that have shoes and those that don't.

Gary, are you saying that it is the blood that pools in the legs and causes the swelling?:confused: My dear Mother defied her Doctors orders on some Meds and she ended up in the hospital with conjestive heart failure, due to "Fluid" build up around her heart, her feet were also swelled up alot. After being on Lasix, she eventually peed all the excess fluid out of her system. I learned somewhere along time ago that inside the horses feet were shunts that controled the bloodflow in the foot. When a rapid pulse rate happens the shunts would basicially shut off the free flow of oxygenated blood to the extremites? Now if I can only remember where I read that or heard it??:eek:
"As I see it, winners get the money - while losers talk of "individual goals" and similar stuff." Tom Stovall
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RE:Frog ...Blood flow?? 12 Jan 2010 21:20 #33

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Gary Hill wrote:
Gary, are you saying that it is the blood that pools in the legs and causes the swelling?:confused:
Yes, however my wife, RN, says my theory is wrong that the swelling is caused by other fluids not blood and is a sign of other problems such as kidneys or the heart not working correctly. She also said that if the blood pooled it would cause clots which is no good, ie. could cause heart attack.

So that shoots my theory completely out of the water.

Back to the books.

Gary Hill wrote:
My dear Mother defied her Doctors orders on some Meds and she ended up in the hospital with conjestive heart failure, due to "Fluid" build up around her heart, her feet were also swelled up alot. After being on Lasix, she eventually peed all the excess fluid out of her system.
I'm no doctor but its my understanding this fluid you described is retained water and an indication of other problems. According to my RN wife, Lasix, is a water reduction drug it pulls the potassium and water out of the system.

Gary Hill wrote:
I learned somewhere along time ago that inside the horses feet were shunts that controled the bloodflow in the foot. When a rapid pulse rate happens the shunts would basicially shut off the free flow of oxygenated blood to the extremites? Now if I can only remember where I read that or heard it??:eek:
Think harder, and be fast about it.:D
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RE:Frog ...Blood flow?? 12 Jan 2010 23:42 #34

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Rick Burten wrote:
Laminitis and founder come to mind....

Since the hoof capsule is finite in its dimensions and the venous system of the hoof and limb is limited, at least to some degree, by the number of vessels and the size of those vessels, IMO based on my personal reading and conversations with others who are knowledgeable in this area, there is no mechanism to fully compensate for such an event. That said, there is some limited remedy available within the hoof capsule due to the fact that because of the complexity of the venous plexuses, some diffusion of high levels of pressure is possible.

Though not much in vogue anymore, drilling holes through the hoof capsule during episodes of severe laminitis/founder to release internal pressure has been a viable method for pressure relief/release. Analogously, when you have an injury to the nail bed of your fingers and/or toes that results in pressure caused by blood concentrating in the area of the injury, drilling or burning a hole through the nail will release that pressure and provide almost instantaneous relief.

Rick
Laminitis or founder weren't absent from my thoughts, however I thought we were strictly speaking of blood flow during load of horse in motion ? maybe I have that wrong Ill go back and check it out. But just for argument sake couldn't laminitis occur even in a state of weightlessness ? i.e in space ?
Chris Schaeffner
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RE:Frog ...Blood flow?? 13 Jan 2010 01:39 #35

  • tbloomer
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Michael,

Have you ever dissected a cadaver limb?
Tom Bloomer
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Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
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RE:Frog ...Blood flow?? 13 Jan 2010 02:33 #36

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AVA shunts just above the capillary bed in the digit. (It is in the AFA TE study guide and you can find it several places on the web...including here: http://www.laminitisresearch.org/downloads/chrispollitt_PolllittBookChapter.pdf)

Increase flow coupled with AVA dilation diverts blood through shunts instead of passing through capillary bed below it. (Reason for this is possibly because of a drop in pressure due to said increased flow - Bernoulli's principal...but that part is my unfounded opinion) This is during acute stage of laminitis, so I don't know if this applies to non-laminitic situations.

Erythrocytes do not leave the capillary bed or any other artery/vein...unless the horse is experiencing vascular rupture/laceration or unless they are at the end of their life cycle and being taken out by the spleen. Extracellular fluids, gasses, and other micronutrients are small enough for active and passive transport across capillary walls.

Most bad cases of thrush will show you there is blood circulating in the frog...all you have to do is run a hoof pick in an area that needs it and you will see the RBCs making a terminal visit to the outside world.
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RE:Frog ...Blood flow?? 13 Jan 2010 03:29 #37

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scruggs1 wrote:
. . . RBCs making a terminal visit to the outside world.
"Rebel" blood cells dyeing for their freedom! LOL! :D
Tom Bloomer
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Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
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RE:Frog ...Blood flow?? 13 Jan 2010 03:53 #38

tbloomer wrote:
Michael,

Have you ever dissected a cadaver limb?

Whats that Tbloomer? Gosh no... not this week yet.
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RE:Frog ...Blood flow?? 13 Jan 2010 16:08 #39

tbloomer wrote:
Michael,

Have you ever dissected a cadaver limb?

Care to enlighten me on what you found as you disected the vessels and arteries in the hoof capsule. That is if you were able to get to them.
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RE:Frog ...Blood flow?? 13 Jan 2010 19:03 #40

  • Ray_Knightley
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I looked at a few Barehoof sites here in germany ....one stated that the horses heart is very small in relation to the rest of the body and so not strong enough to pump the blood back from the lower limbs as there is no muscle there to help and the pump effect of the hoof with shoes is not intacted and dangerous ..
This is the main reason I posted this thread ,as I can`t see it really ..
The other posts here are a great insight into the true function of load and unload of hooves and how important it is ,but I think that the idea that the frog a sort of pump that really pumps blood to the heart is a bit too easy Or?
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RE:Frog ...Blood flow?? 14 Jan 2010 00:41 #41

  • tbloomer
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Ray_Knightley wrote:
. . . but I think that the idea that the frog a sort of pump that really pumps blood to the heart is a bit too easy Or?
Perhaps it would be better to think of the frog as a plunger mechanism which presses on the digital cushion, the digital cushion spreading out between the frog pressing up and pastern pressing down. The digital cushion pushing on the lateral cartilages, the lateral cartilages as sponges filled with blood which returns to the heart when that sponge is squeezed.
Tom Bloomer
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Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
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RE:Frog ...Blood flow?? 14 Jan 2010 01:19 #42

tbloomer wrote:
The digital cushion pushing on the lateral cartilages, the lateral cartilages as sponges filled with blood which returns to the heart when that sponge is squeezed.

???? Are you sure the C/L cartilages are filled with blood.
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RE:Frog ...Blood flow?? 14 Jan 2010 12:14 #43

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clearthinkingone wrote:
???? Are you sure the C/L cartilages are filled with blood.
Michael, It doesn't seem fair that I should continue to answer your questions while you appear to avoid answering mine.

Have you ever dissected a cadaver limb?

If so, the please describe the appearance of the lateral cartridges when you opened them up. The ball remains in your court, mate. ;)
Tom Bloomer
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Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
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RE:Frog ...Blood flow?? 14 Jan 2010 15:15 #44

clearthinkingone wrote:
Whats that Tbloomer? Gosh no... not this week yet.
Well I did answer you, sorry if you needed it a little more straight forward. Yes I have but not this week yet.

It’s hard to describe what they looked like. Cartilage would be the closes way that I would put it. They were covered in blood however, if that makes you feel better.


Now Tbloomer do you feel that I have answered your question? Is it fare enough for you now. I would hate for you to think the world is unfair.
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RE:Frog ...Blood flow?? 14 Jan 2010 15:29 #45

The Lateral Cartilages have some blood flow but not a great amount. I had an instructor in college that had injected plastics into the veins and arteries and boiled the hoof away. It was very interesting to see. I have been looking on line for something similar but have yet to find it. In the mean time. Look at this site with a hoof dissection and scroll down to the part of the lateral cartilages and tell me if you think it looks filled with blood.

http://www.all-natural-horse-care.com/horse-hoof-anatomy.html
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