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TOPIC: Measuring Collateral Grooves To Determine M/L Balance...

RE:Measuring Collateral Grooves To Determine M/L Balance... 24 Oct 2009 14:33 #16

  • irishcas
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DavidinGA wrote:

After rereading the last article (especially the last couple of paragraphs) I wonder if Mrs. Perry's horse doesn't "paddle" a little bit with that foot. I didn't get to see the horse move but I wasn't trimming or shoeing it so it didn't matter at the time. Mr. Ramey contends (in the last article I posted ) that ..."The lateral cartilages semi-permanently adjust their rest position to accommodate the most common impact of an individual hoof.

David,

I think Pete's comments are correct, I've heard Jaye say it though, in a much more simplistic way
The foot will react from the pressures placed upon it

Here is a picture of a horse who blew out a huge abscess in the lateral quarter this summer. I trimmed the wall and casted the foot for a week sometime in July and that was the last time he was trimmed. Yeah yeah whatevah ;) He was ridden a few times in September, sound and fine, I rode him on Tuesday and except for the really rocky area he was fine. I was hoping he would have chipped off more wall, but he didn't so I finally caved and trimmed him a bit last night.

Look how the foot as reacted due to the pressures placed upon it. I'll take some more pix tonight to see what the tubules look like.

NOTE: I didn't not trim for an Everyday Shoeing picture and I couldn't care less what anyone thinks of my finish job, so don't bother! I mean obviously I don't care :D Look at how cr@ptastic the foot looks before trim.

A hoof that usually hits the ground slightly crooked because of an angular deformity or body issue will adjust its lateral cartilages accordingly. Also, a perfectly straight-legged horse can make such adjustments due to its most common work."...[/B] Which to me says that the coffin bone actually repositions itsself in the hoof capsule over time to land flat m/l no matter how the horse travels.

Actually this same horse has a very crooked RF from the fetlock down. his lateral cartilages and heel bulbs are level when viewed from behind the foot, but his lateral wall is flared when viewed DP. But the foot is level when m/l balance is checked.
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Kim Cassidy
"I still say a church steeple with a lightning rod on top shows a lack of confidence." Doug McLeod
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RE:Measuring Collateral Grooves To Determine M/L Balance... 24 Oct 2009 19:12 #17

  • tbloomer
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Cyber Farrier wrote:
The discussion has been intense, but it's been focused on the subject matter, not the individuals presenting their views.

Baron Tayler

Do tell.

irishcas wrote:
And then there is the problem where someone talks SOOOOO much and tries to prove how uber smart they are that people just ignore everything they say.

Can't make sense of it at all, can you imagine :eek:

Red Amor wrote:
yeah ya gotta talk with people to better get the message through
the best educators are often the most humble types abd can talk to anyone and reach them

John Emsley wrote:
Couldn't agree with you more Red. I can't learn from an arrogant know it all type no matter how much they know. Just stop listening and don't hear a thing.:cool: No one knows it all, although there are those that give that impression. Humility is found in the truly great teachers and practitioners in anything. ;)
John

irishcas wrote:
Here is what I have to say to those who can't stop TALKING....

****warning***** contains language that might offend the sensitive folk....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAVoQfoU0dQ

Well focused on the subject matter . . . if you can't understand the message, attack the messenger.
Tom Bloomer
http://blackburnforge.com
302-222-6404


Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
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RE:Measuring Collateral Grooves To Determine M/L Balance... 24 Oct 2009 19:20 #18

irishcas wrote:
David,

I think Pete's comments are correct, I've heard Jaye say it though, in a much more simplistic way



Here is a picture of a horse who blew out a huge abscess in the lateral quarter this summer. I trimmed the wall and casted the foot for a week sometime in July and that was the last time he was trimmed. Yeah yeah whatevah ;) He was ridden a few times in September, sound and fine, I rode him on Tuesday and except for the really rocky area he was fine. I was hoping he would have chipped off more wall, but he didn't so I finally caved and trimmed him a bit last night.

Look how the foot as reacted due to the pressures placed upon it. I'll take some more pix tonight to see what the tubules look like.

NOTE: I didn't not trim for an Everyday Shoeing picture and I couldn't care less what anyone thinks of my finish job, so don't bother! I mean obviously I don't care :D Look at how cr@ptastic the foot looks before trim.




Actually this same horse has a very crooked RF from the fetlock down. his lateral cartilages and heel bulbs are level when viewed from behind the foot, but his lateral wall is flared when viewed DP. But the foot is level when m/l balance is checked.

Your finish is a secondary thing, but your lack of addressing all the distortions is another. take a long(
) look at the pic. even though bones might be in good alignment, what about the hooves? You havent addressed flares, you´ve just undercut them.



Fetlock varus?
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RE:Measuring Collateral Grooves To Determine M/L Balance... 24 Oct 2009 22:05 #19

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Ummmm didn't catch your first and last name, it seems to be missing from your post.

Would you mind taking the foot either before trim or after trim and mark upon it what you would like me to remove?

After I see that diagram, I'll share the photos of the solar views I took yesterday and the photos I've taken this evening.

And to be extra sure that we are clear on your views on my horses feet, I'll show photos of his feet BEFORE he blew out the abscess.
Kim Cassidy
"I still say a church steeple with a lightning rod on top shows a lack of confidence." Doug McLeod
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RE:Measuring Collateral Grooves To Determine M/L Balance... 25 Oct 2009 00:33 #20

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Originally Posted by calshoer
But I sure want to know that I have the bone it flat ML to begin with
Say WHAT?
Small typo in editing ,thats all. Take the "it" out of that sentence and the sentence makes perfect sense.
The OTHER "it" in the other sentence which you didn't understand refers to Mike Savoldi's UST.
In regards to to MY theories? I have cited exactly ZERO of "MY" theories here. I am simply citing what I have been taught by others including how Mike Savoldi's Uniform Sole thickness studies have consistently worked for me. So please do tell him hello for me when you see him, and also tell him how I supported HIS theories and research here in this thread.
Thank you in advance for passing it along for me.
Patty Stiller CNBF,CLS
www.hoofcareonline.com
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RE:Measuring Collateral Grooves To Determine M/L Balance... 25 Oct 2009 02:22 #21

  • Cyber Farrier
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Tom Bloomer wrote:
Do tell.

Yes, I do tell. The quotes you pulled are not, I believe, from either thread I referenced. Doesn't excuse them, but I'm a stickler for accuracy.:rolleyes:

Baron Tayler
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RE:Measuring Collateral Grooves To Determine M/L Balance... 25 Oct 2009 03:52 #22

  • Jack Evers
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Here’s an extreme deviation and a trim to sole plane with added lateral support. Three year old QH. I didn’t see this horse until a week ago. The owner’s been bugging me since shortly after I broke my collarbone (Sept 1) and I’ve been trying to tell him a) I’m really not interested in new customers and b) I’m broke down and can’t shoe one for a while anyway. He’s a persistent cuss, wouldn’t take no for an answer and I finally agreed to come out with a friend and former apprentice and see what we could do with Alan handling the actual work. Hopefully the orthopod will give me an OK to do my own work next week. A week ago we went to trim his three with it being left to us if this one needed shoes. We said lateral support was necessary, but we’d like radiographs. Owner still wondered if the horse could be straightened although the vet had told him that he should have brought the horse in at two months rather than three years. I agreed and suggested the X-rays so he could really see the problem.

Alan trimmed to sole plane before the x-rays. Last picture is the A-P view showing the problem at the distal end of the third metacarpal. Distal surface of P-3 is pretty level, collateral grooves are close to the same depth. Sorry for the quality, weren’t great films anyhow and we could only hold them toward the light and snap a picture.

Second pic is a shot down the cannon as we normally sight to show how far the T-square method would miss. Next is a solar shot of the shoe, the extra fullering on the lateral heel is just to spread it and get more support. That was my first hot work since the injury and it felt mighty good.

The last pic is the finished foot. It’s deceptive and doesn’t look like there’s as much lateral support as there really is. Should have taken it from the rear. At any rate he walked off better than he walked up. He’s no longer twisting at the fetlock on the sand surface where he lives. I’ll report more after he gets ridden some. Seems like I'm doing a bunch of QH and Paints lately with bad legs.

And David, I rarely build up the hoof wall even on medial support unless there’s an interference problem or a show horse where cosmetics are important.
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Jack Evers CJF AFA#426

The best things about the good old days -- I wasn't good and I wasn't old.

The older I get, the more horses I shoe, the fewer things that I can absolutely, positively fix.
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RE:Measuring Collateral Grooves To Determine M/L Balance... 25 Oct 2009 04:47 #23

irishcas wrote:
Ummmm didn't catch your first and last name, it seems to be missing from your post.

Would you mind taking the foot either before trim or after trim and mark upon it what you would like me to remove?

After I see that diagram, I'll share the photos of the solar views I took yesterday and the photos I've taken this evening.

And to be extra sure that we are clear on your views on my horses feet, I'll show photos of his feet BEFORE he blew out the abscess.


His/her name is the screen name Juhani....
:cool:www.blinddogforge.com

Bob Guyon JR.
Lakeside, CA

"Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Now lets the rest of us go on to Montana." -Augustus McCrae
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RE:Measuring Collateral Grooves To Determine M/L Balance... 25 Oct 2009 05:24 #24

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Jack, that X-ray is an exact (well almost) looking copy of a horse I have been working on here. She's a little mustang mare though, but I am at a disadvantage, the owner wants the horse to stay barefoot. So far we're ok, but she's not in work. The vet wanted NB shoes, but I didn't think they would do what was needed. I suggested a similar set up to what you've done and was shot down before finishing the sentence. Oh well, the little mare will be ok, cause she will never be more than a pet.
Ben Sturman
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Beware the lollipop of mediocrity, one lick and you will suck for ever!

Folks who think traditional farriery means perimeter fit don't know a heluva lot about shoeing. Tom Stovall,...
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RE:Measuring Collateral Grooves To Determine M/L Balance... 25 Oct 2009 13:00 #25

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Cyber Farrier wrote:
Yes, I do tell. The quotes you pulled are not, I believe, from either thread I referenced. Doesn't excuse them, but I'm a stickler for accuracy.:rolleyes:

Baron Tayler
You didn't reference any threads by name. As I've pointed out before, the title of a thread does not always reflect topic(s) in the discussion going on. It is difficult to predict where and when you will be a stickler or what degree of stickleishness you will apply . . . it depends . . .;)
Tom Bloomer
http://blackburnforge.com
302-222-6404


Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
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RE:Measuring Collateral Grooves To Determine M/L Balance... 25 Oct 2009 13:47 #26

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blinddogfarrier wrote:
His/her name is the screen name Juhani....

That may be, but I thought the new rule is EVERYONE up in FHF must sign their posts first and last name.

Rules are rules.
Kim Cassidy
"I still say a church steeple with a lightning rod on top shows a lack of confidence." Doug McLeod
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RE:Measuring Collateral Grooves To Determine M/L Balance... 25 Oct 2009 14:37 #27

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Jack thanks for that picture, it is what I was talking about in limb deviations. That one was probably born that way however, hence the sole plane meeting the needs of the limb. I find (as you did in that one) that the P3 and sole will modify to level the load in the deviated limb, creating a flat base of support. In those cases,following the sole is what that horse needs.

However, in a case of a more recent angular change in a limb , (fractured knee for example that is slowly deviating to a varus conformation) sometimes the sole and/or P3 has not yet made the modifications and needs a unlevel
P3 for the horse to be able to stand on the bottom of the foot. Those are where I may use a sideways wedge or one rail for a while after trimming the foot to the sole. But those cases are very rare, IME. And if I have to leave one barefoot that has a severe knee deviation and is getting around well with the foot unlevel to the sole, I will not trim to the sole but will accommodate the foot's unlevel needs.
Patty Stiller CNBF,CLS
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RE:Measuring Collateral Grooves To Determine M/L Balance... 25 Oct 2009 15:24 #28

  • Jack Evers
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irishcas wrote:
That may be, but I thought the new rule is EVERYONE up in FHF must sign their posts first and last name.

Rules are rules.

Rule number 2, Kim.


2) ALL posts in ALL of the Farriers Helping Farriers forums MUST be signed by the full (first and last) name of the poster, or the posts will be removed immediately. (If your screen name IS your real full name, signing at the bottom of your posts will be appreciated, but is not required.)
Jack Evers CJF AFA#426

The best things about the good old days -- I wasn't good and I wasn't old.

The older I get, the more horses I shoe, the fewer things that I can absolutely, positively fix.
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RE:Measuring Collateral Grooves To Determine M/L Balance... 25 Oct 2009 15:26 #29

  • Cyber Farrier
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Thank you, Jack.

Baron Tayler
“Suppose you were an ******. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself.”
- Mark Twain

“There is no distinctly native American criminal class... save Congress.”
-Mark Twain

“No man's life, liberty, or property is safe...
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RE:Measuring Collateral Grooves To Determine M/L Balance... 25 Oct 2009 15:59 #30

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Jack Evers wrote:
Rule number 2, Kim.


2) ALL posts in ALL of the Farriers Helping Farriers forums MUST be signed by the full (first and last) name of the poster, or the posts will be removed immediately. (If your screen name IS your real full name, signing at the bottom of your posts will be appreciated, but is not required.)

Thanks Jack, good to know.
Kim Cassidy
"I still say a church steeple with a lightning rod on top shows a lack of confidence." Doug McLeod
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