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TOPIC: NPA radiographs

RE:NPA radiographs 15 Oct 2009 01:31 #16

  • Gary Hill
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Patty, question please? What to the rails do to a foot in really deep footing? Thanks
"As I see it, winners get the money - while losers talk of "individual goals" and similar stuff." Tom Stovall
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RE:NPA radiographs 15 Oct 2009 07:41 #17

calshoer wrote:
I know many people who do a trim such as Derek suggests,including some farriers very close to me here. I do not agree with it.
The last thing I want to do is weaken the anterior portion of a foot capsule that already has a weak caudal portion.

How is it going to weaken an area that is designed and thrives on bearing weight. I have shod so many horses trimming to the widest point and setting the toe back and feel that it weakens the anterior portion far more in the long term as we are in fact creating this negative PA which results in a total breakdown of the function of the digit.

Patty remember what the original question was, this is a working trail and driving horse. Would the package you suggest work in these disciplines. Remember we are working with the hind feet, less weight bearing and easier to rectify. How would you compensate for the -4 (lots of sole depth) and -1 (less sole depth) without trimming the affected area. We also need to remember that this horse will be pre-disposed to this condition through its conformation and adding the kitchen sink onto the foot is only a short term solution unless you are prepared to do it for the life of the horse.
You would be better off leaving shoes off, rockering the toe and breathing some life into the foot.
Derek Poupard CJF, Dip WCF
www.quixshoe.com
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RE:NPA radiographs 15 Oct 2009 08:20 #18

Some Pictures to back up what I said. This is a typical TB hind foot. The before trim on top shows the ground angle and coronary angle. The second picture is the trim to compensate for the decreasing PA which is what force over time creates.
The red line on the bottom picture is the same angle as the top, the blue line is the new angle. Looks a bit like a wedge doesn't it
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RE:NPA radiographs 15 Oct 2009 12:46 #19

  • cuttinshoer
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As far as the sole depth goes he was at 15mm in the LH and about 10 in the RH. The reason I had these done is looking at the sole you would think he was getting ready to bleed but felt their was a little more foot in the left hind to be trimmed. This is about how I trimmed him, I felt comfortable taking this much with out compromising any sole depth, I feel I have gotten both feet around a 0 PA. These xrays are a little deceiveing as to the depth, 000 feet. I was supposed to be able to do my own measureing but haven't been able to figure it out yet.

I tacked some bannanas with a three degree wedge on him, and didn't care for the way he moved, he was not useing the back of his foot. He was landing right in the middle of the roll at the trot, Is this a characteristic landing point of the bannana shoe or should they be landing heel first. At the moment he is barefoot in a stall, I think I am going to wait on a little more foot to work with.

Thanks everyone for your replies, their has been a lot of threads on here about NPA but none of them ever got into detail about what peoples solutions where to the problem.

Justin Decker
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[ATTACH]11536[/ATTACH]
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RE:NPA radiographs 15 Oct 2009 15:08 #20

  • calshoer
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Patty, question please? What to the rails do to a foot in really deep footing? Thanks
The particular horse I posted was not working in deep footing. in fact he was initially presented barely able to walk, and looked like that on all 4 feet. I used him as an illustrattionof aligning the DIPjoint better without trimming the anterior sole.

Rails would not work in deep footing . That is why I always consider a variety of possible packages when assessing the horses job environment etc.
If that horse had to work in deep footing yet needed the angle raised significantly as it was , I would use something besides rails, possibly a stacked wedge package, perhaps a wedge bar shoe with a full wedge pad on top of it, or two wedge pads stacked on top of a PLR shoe, etc.
In other words, Something that would create a full platform in the caudal region to hold the heels up in the dirt.
Patty Stiller CNBF,CLS
www.hoofcareonline.com
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RE:NPA radiographs 15 Oct 2009 15:24 #21

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Patty remember what the original question was, this is a working trail and driving horse. Would the package you suggest work in these disciplines.
Probably. AS I said above it is not the only option it is the mechanics that are important and a variety of packages can achieve these mechanics.
Remember we are working with the hind feet, less weight bearing and easier to rectify.
I find the hind feet tend to get worse NPA than the fronts.
How would you compensate for the -4 (lots of sole depth) and -1 (less sole depth) without trimming the affected area.
I see no need or reason to correct or compensate for what consider to be healthy thick sole depth in the anterior sole. Ido not have to make the sole an even depth by thinning one end. I would rather correct the unhealthy, thin end..the caudal sole.
We also need to remember that this horse will be predisposed to this condition through its conformation
yes, I agree tha genetics will predispose it . Some of the 'conformation ' (stance) may be compensatory due to discomfort in the feet. Change the alignment and support in the feet and the conformation can change, instantly, IME .
and adding the kitchen sink onto the foot is only a short term solution unless you are prepared to do it for the life of the horse.
Given that is is genetic/conformational, wouldn't trimming off anterior sole at every trim also be necessary for the life of the horse?
You would be better off leaving shoes off, rockering the toe and breathing some life into the foot.
I can do the same thing with artificial frog support and wedges while not weakening the foot , drawing blood, or putting the horse out of work while he is "breathing life" into his feet".
Patty Stiller CNBF,CLS
www.hoofcareonline.com
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RE:NPA radiographs 17 Oct 2009 19:00 #22

In my experience when the digital cushion is atrophied it is virtually impossible to regain a more or less healthy hoof. Wedges, rails and frog support are needed to prevent damage to interna structures of the foot but all have the same flaw, added pressure on a foot that can not handle pressure.

If you add wedges in cases where the digital cushion is beyond repair you better be very sure you ease breakover big time. In my book that is back to the COA.


Ronald Aalders

p.s. the fact that this foot got to this improved state in just three shoeings means that the banana is the way to go, but most of all it proves the digital cushion of this horse was not beyond repair :rolleyes:
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RE:NPA radiographs 18 Oct 2009 01:10 #23

  • irishcas
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Ronald Aalders wrote:
p.s. the fact that this foot got to this improved state in just three shoeings means that the banana is the way to go,

I don't see how you have reached this conclusion. You didn't try any other shoeing methods but your favorite method is the proven way. I disagree.

but most of all it proves the digital cushion of this horse was not beyond repair :rolleyes:

Huh?
Kim Cassidy
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RE:NPA radiographs 18 Oct 2009 09:40 #24

irishcas wrote:
I don't see how you have reached this conclusion. You didn't try any other shoeing methods but your favorite method is the proven way. I disagree.


I'm pretty sure you and I disagree on most things. What I do here is present and share my experience. Anyone can use it for free if he or she feels it would do them any good. Discarding it as not suited for your purposes is free too.

Regarding your apprentice like remark you may do good to realize that unlike you I have been shoeing ánd trimming for over 30 years now. Like most shoers here I went through a zillion shoeing and trimming protocols and continue to use the helpfull ones in those cases I think they may help. The banana shoe concept is only one of them. In cases of a negative palmar angle I have found that concept is the most helpful. But remember the second statement in the first paragraph.

I found that when the digital cushion is gone getting a feet back up and having it stay up on its own is virtually impossible. The way I got to this conclusion is that on some horses with similar externally visible pathologies feet improve, others do not. The only I have at this stage of my knowledge and experience is that the state of the digital cushion is the culprit.


Ronald Aalders
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RE:NPA radiographs 18 Oct 2009 16:47 #25

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Ronald Aalders wrote:
I'm pretty sure you and I disagree on most things. What I do here is present and share my experience. Anyone can use it for free if he or she feels it would do them any good. Discarding it as not suited for your purposes is free too.

I just asked a simple question.
Regarding your apprentice like remark you may do good to realize that unlike you I have been shoeing ánd trimming for over 30 years now. Like most shoers here I went through a zillion shoeing and trimming protocols and continue to use the helpfull ones in those cases I think they may help. The banana shoe concept is only one of them. In cases of a negative palmar angle I have found that concept is the most helpful. But remember the second statement in the first paragraph.

Appropriate to call me an "apprentice" Ron. That I am. The experience or experiences one accumulates takes a few years. Thus my simplistic question.

Couldn't the change been made with just a plain shoeing protocol say shoe, wedge pad and a little putty over 3 cycles? My experience, up to now, has shown similar results without designer approaches. Eponas are just a shoe, not a protocol.
I found that when the digital cushion is gone getting a feet back up and having it stay up on its own is virtually impossible. The way I got to this conclusion is that on some horses with similar externally visible pathologies feet improve, others do not. The only I have at this stage of my knowledge and experience is that the state of the digital cushion is the culprit.

The digital cushion is important but just "ONE" part of the foot/leg. Somewhere I read that the so called digital cushion, a.k.a. fibrocartilage matrix, takes close to 6 - 9 years to formulate into good working order.

Your thoughts?
Kim Cassidy
"I still say a church steeple with a lightning rod on top shows a lack of confidence." Doug McLeod
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RE:NPA radiographs 18 Oct 2009 23:50 #26

irishcas wrote:
Eponas are just a shoe, not a protocol.

Actually, Kim, the Epona's are not just a shoe. They do several things that a regular steel shoe do not. They have pretty good breakover built in, they also wear very quickly in the toe area and are much softer which allows the horse to rock forward on his toes as well as wear a really deep rocker in the toe area. They also support the rear of the foot much better than a steel, conventionally shaped steel shoe. They do not provide the exact same mechanics as a banana shoe, but much closer to that than a regular steel horseshoe.

Do you notice that in most of Ron's banana shoe pics that the horse is rocked forward off of his heels? I wonder if that isn't key to how and why the banana shoe works so well for weak hooves? My thought is that with a weak digital cushion, the rear of the horse's hoof doesn't adequately support the coffin joint, so you frequently get a negative palmer angle and broken back pastern axis. With the banana shoe, the horse can rock forward and correct the angle more easily and comfortably.

Just thinking out loud.
Karen Standefer
Southern Oregon
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RE:NPA radiographs 19 Oct 2009 00:07 #27

  • Clint Burrell
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stuff deletedKarenStandefer wrote:
Actually, Kim, the Epona's are not just a shoe. They do several things that a regular steel shoe do not. They have pretty good breakover built in, they also wear very quickly in the toe area and are much softer which allows the horse to rock forward on his toes as well as wear a really deep rocker in the toe area. They also support the rear of the foot much better than a steel, conventionally shaped steel shoe. They do not provide the exact same mechanics as a banana shoe, but much closer to that than a regular steel horseshoe.

All of these things can be gained w/ a properly fitted/applied "steel" shoe. Including reduction of concussion. From your description it sounds like a good shoe for a "lay" shoer. Sorry Kim.
Clint Burrell

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RE:NPA radiographs 19 Oct 2009 00:35 #28

  • Gary Hill
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Ron, your visuals are proof enough that what you are doing actually works. I see no dub in the walls of the feet when you apply your protocal. It would be nice if you were able to have radiographs to go along with the photos, but I know owners are cheap when it comes to hoofcare.
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RE:NPA radiographs 19 Oct 2009 01:10 #29

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Gary Hill wrote:
Ron, your visuals are proof enough that what you are doing actually works. I see no dub in the walls of the feet when you apply your protocal. It would be nice if you were able to have radiographs to go along with the photos, but I know owners are cheap when it comes to hoofcare.

Gary,

I certainly did not say that Ron did not achieve improvement.

I questioned his conclusion that the improvements were due solely to the Banana Shoe application.

It seems to me, and I could be totally off base. that Ron is doing what the BUA does sometimes, showing a poorly neglected foot and regaling the shoe as the cure. I'm not saying Ron is a poor shoer or lacking in knowledge. When in fact it would more than likely be some decent trimming with a shoe applied could and did make a difference. I'm very confident I could have achieved tremendous improvements using The Epona's and their shoeing packages, or hoof boots or a steel shoe with a wedge pad.

The biggest mistake seems to be Owner Neglect. Again, my question was related to this statement
p.s. the fact that this foot got to this improved state in just three shoeings means that the banana is the way to go,

Clint you said:
All of these things can be gained w/ a properly fitted/applied "steel" shoe. Including reduction of concussion. From your description it sounds like a good shoe for a "lay" shoer. Sorry Kim.

First off, no need to apologize. Around my parts my applying Epona shoes is either the same price or cheaper than an application of 4 hot shoes with extras. So don't see why it's a shoe for a "lay" shoer :(

I personally think the Epona's offer all that the steel shoes do and am very happy to continue using them on all manner of horses.

I have not ruled out steel shoes and need to find out for myself how they compare to the Epona's and other plastics.

Still waiting to hear Ron's reply.
Kim Cassidy
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RE:NPA radiographs 19 Oct 2009 01:24 #30

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The problem with the plastics, are not on problem feet that are in a state of rest. Ron is "usually" shoeing athletes that must perform. You can't nail plastics on horses that work in wheat fields doctoring cattle ,nor on ahorse that performs on grass unless you want the animal and rider to take a bad fall. Nor would one nail them on any horse that actually would torque the ground ie, Cutters, cowhorses, reiners, ropers, or canchasers. Nail them on the pasture pets that need help thats all. They are a helpful tool on horses that need them , thats all nothing more or less.
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