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TOPIC: NPA radiographs

NPA radiographs 08 Oct 2009 20:45 #1

  • cuttinshoer
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Here are some rads I had done today, what are your thoughts on these and what would be your process to help them out. RH is -1 and the LH is -4, 4 year old quarter horse used for driving and trail riding.

Justin Decker

[ATTACH]11367[/ATTACH]

[ATTACH]11368[/ATTACH]
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Justin Decker

"As I see it, good enough is never good enough, it's just an excuse for mediocrity. If every shoeing ain't worth your best shot, you're just going through the motions." Tom Stovall, CJF
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RE:NPA radiographs 08 Oct 2009 21:06 #2

  • Rick Burten
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cuttinshoer wrote:
Here are some rads I had done today, what are your thoughts on these and what would be your process to help them out.
Hi Justin,

My trim protocol would revolve around making sure the feet are in M/L balance, pulling the heels back to the widest part of the frog, and removing as much wall at the toe as is practical. Shoeing wise I would use either a very blunt toed, set back shoe, or a rocker toe shoe. In either case, I would make extended heels that came back at least as far as a vertical line dropped brom the bulbs to the ground and maybe just a bit more. I say a bit more because I would add a frog support bar wedge pad to each foot. How much would depend on how much it took to raise the angle to a point where the wings of p3 were at least 2-3 or more degrees above a zero palmer angle.
Quarter clips and 4 nailed.

Let us know what you decided to do and try to take some before and after pictures too.

Rick
Rick Burten PF

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RE:NPA radiographs 09 Oct 2009 02:27 #3

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Rick Burten wrote:
Hi Justin,

My trim protocol would revolve around making sure the feet are in M/L balance, pulling the heels back to the widest part of the frog, and removing as much wall at the toe as is practical. Shoeing wise I would use either a very blunt toed, set back shoe, or a rocker toe shoe. In either case, I would make extended heels that came back at least as far as a vertical line dropped brom the bulbs to the ground and maybe just a bit more. I say a bit more because I would add a frog support bar wedge pad to each foot. How much would depend on how much it took to raise the angle to a point where the wings of p3 were at least 2-3 or more degrees above a zero palmer angle.
Quarter clips and 4 nailed.

Let us know what you decided to do and try to take some before and after pictures too.

Rick

I am stuck between a rocker toed bar shoe or a banana at the moment, I have seen what they can do for sole depth in a short period of time. Hopefully Ron will chime in. I shaped some up tonight may try to putem on tommorrow and see how he goes. Thanks

Justin Decker
Justin Decker

"As I see it, good enough is never good enough, it's just an excuse for mediocrity. If every shoeing ain't worth your best shot, you're just going through the motions." Tom Stovall, CJF
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RE:NPA radiographs 09 Oct 2009 14:26 #4

  • irishcas
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Orrrrrr, not to be a one man band or anything, but ;)

You could trim the toe a bit, then pack the back of the foot with Impression Material, use the Epona Shoe and apply a tad extra glue at the heels to create a slight wedge and apply them.

Then use 4 - 5 nails.

It has worked for me in my novice experience with the shoes.

So you are not just stuck with a rocker or a banana.

:D
Kim Cassidy
"I still say a church steeple with a lightning rod on top shows a lack of confidence." Doug McLeod
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RE:NPA radiographs 09 Oct 2009 19:54 #5

  • brian robertson
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I see a lot of those hind feet in cheap TB's used for lower level eventing. There is usually intermintent lamesness problems and back issues. It appears to me that horses like these have "fallen through their shoes" with oversized frogs. In the past I have tried wedges, bar wedges and bar wedges with frog supports with various results.
I have had consistant good results using an eggbar with a welded in frog plate (ala Eddie Watson) covering the back 1/2 of the frogs then filled with equi-pak from the tip of the frog back to shoe level.
I seem to be able to get the horse comfortable using this method without radically changing their "way of going". 2-3 shoeings later the plantar angle has been restored; the downside is most horse will fall back through their shoes if not maintained on the barshoes or let go barefoot.
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RE:NPA radiographs 09 Oct 2009 20:59 #6

Brian,
That has been my experience as well--- I think these feet just do not have any substance to the digital cushion--- if we create one externaly they do better--take it away and they rotate negative again.

Another option is a wide bar straight bar and a back half fill--- if piii picks up the foot will not look so elongated.
jason
"Always listen to the experts. They tell you what can't be done, and why. Then do it." Robert Heinlien
Jason Maki CJF, RJF
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RE:NPA radiographs 11 Oct 2009 15:58 #7

  • tbloomer
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Jason,

What do you think would happen if somebody (an equine plastic surgeon so to speak) developed a surgical implant to augment the digital cushion in these horses?

Just asking . . . don't freak out people. :o
Tom Bloomer
http://blackburnforge.com
302-222-6404


Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
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RE:NPA radiographs 11 Oct 2009 16:23 #8

  • BS-Horseshoeing
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Tom, don't you know, Dr. Bowker says you can rebuild them with proper trims and nutrition and leaving the peripheral loading devices off the feet. You have to keep them on pea gravel also.:rolleyes:
Ben Sturman
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RE:NPA radiographs 11 Oct 2009 17:30 #9

Tom,
I think the horse would die of foot rot---Between the near impossiibility of keeping an equine foot sterile and the probable rejection of the implant...
--they would just need a really dense and rugged device like they use for breast implants and a way to keep the body from rejecting it.
Perhaps injections of some substance to create resilliancy into the existing cushion might work better-- way over my pay grade though-- bar shoes, frog pads,equipak et al are more my speed.:)
jason
"Always listen to the experts. They tell you what can't be done, and why. Then do it." Robert Heinlien
Jason Maki CJF, RJF
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RE:NPA radiographs 11 Oct 2009 19:01 #10

  • Gary Hill
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Jason, thats what I thought also, a boob implant in the hoof!:D
"As I see it, winners get the money - while losers talk of "individual goals" and similar stuff." Tom Stovall
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RE:NPA radiographs 11 Oct 2009 23:19 #11

  • SlowShoe
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Can't you guys stop thinking about boobs for just a MINUTE?
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RE:NPA radiographs 11 Oct 2009 23:37 #12

  • Gary Hill
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OK ,a minutes is up! Now on to more, ya know they come in pairs!:D
"As I see it, winners get the money - while losers talk of "individual goals" and similar stuff." Tom Stovall
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RE:NPA radiographs 13 Oct 2009 16:06 #13

Justin
This looks like a lot of thoroughbred racehorses in training, negative palmar angle, coronary band pointing to the shoulder and above, sore back and hocks.
The heels are crushed and rolling over due to all the weight being transferred caudally and the entire foot is a fulcrum towards this compromised area. The more pressure exerted to this area the less it grows and the more the digital cushion is compromised. I have attached your radiographs with where I would trim this foot. I find this is a common occurrence on the foot that is constantly dressed back on the heels and shoe set back to address the COA without addressing the PA in the trim. We end up with a great sole depth at the toe, but at what cost.?
You may find with your initial trim the foot may leak although it is not soft, I use my frog plane (the radiographs) and constant thumb pressure test to determine this trim.
Once the trim is done, check your PA and if needed use what everyone recommends i.e eggbar/wedge/digital support. If you wedge you must support the frog or the whole thing will just drop again. Try and pick the PA up to the point where the horse is transferring weight to the front part of the foot away from the heel. Keep your toe and try not to dress it back as you need it to bear weight. You will see an enormous change in the quality of growth in the feet over a short time.
I am really concentrating on this lately and have been radiographing feet before and after trims and there is a definite improvement in the quality of the horn at the heel. P.S. Sole pressure relief is important if you trim to the point where it is soft.
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Derek Poupard CJF, Dip WCF
www.quixshoe.com
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RE:NPA radiographs 14 Oct 2009 18:05 #14

  • mwmyersdvm
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I have used roller shoes with frog support pads and wedge PLR shoes with frog support pads with good results in both packages. I f you have poor hoof quality to start and may suffer some initial shoe loss, I have also had success with both types of shoes with Equibuild pour ins. In retrospect, I think the pour in actually resulted in better hoof mass than the pads. It appears that it serves as a 'sole adhesive' preventing too much wall pulling medially and laterally on the sole as well as a frog support. Thetrim is critical before any package is applied. The laid over bars need to be removed as completely as possible, salvaging a bit of bar if you can. I trim from the center of the hoof forward removing no heel initially which lowers the toe and raises the palmar angle, then gently move back to clean up the heels and blend the caudal part of the hoof to the initial front trim. Another method I used successfully in a couple of horses was to stall confine them for two months and put them in Ultimates to grow a lot of sole. These horses did not have access to farriers that would go along with any of the above protocols and the owner needed to do something. I was also not close enough to personally handle the case so these owners learned to do their own barefoot trims and used the ultimates to get some hoof to work with. Actually was rather successful.

M. W. Myers, D.V.M.
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RE:NPA radiographs 15 Oct 2009 01:20 #15

  • calshoer
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I know many people who do a trim such as Derik suggests,including some farriers very close to me here. I do not agree with it.
The last thing I want to do is weaken the anterior portion of a foot capsule that already has a weak caudal portion.
Logic says that one half of the foot is weak(caudal) and the other half still strong so OK lets just ruin the good half.....
.In my opinion , removing supportive and protective sole in an attempt to align the phalanges in the trim is basically addressing the wrong half of the foot. And totally missing the cause of the misalignment .
Given that the caudal foot is weak in these, likely with a lack of structural cartilage (Bowker) , I much prefer to preserve what IS good in the foot (the anterior sole) and support and wedge the rear.

I don't know what kind of media you would want to see for what packages I might use because there are many possibilities. . But here is one on a really bad neg palmer angle horse. The sole depth at the toe was maintained and the alignment was achieved with wedges and frog support. Same foot, pics taken during the shoeing .
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Patty Stiller CNBF,CLS
www.hoofcareonline.com
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