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TOPIC: Cutting a Degree/wedge pad to rim?

RE:Cutting a Degree/wedge pad to rim? 02 Oct 2006 13:11 #16


The finnished product with Equipak copper sulfate applied up to the foot surface of the shoe.

Lateral view to show a/p balance.
Corey A. Minnick, CJF
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RE:Cutting a Degree/wedge pad to rim? 02 Oct 2006 14:28 #17

Horsehelper; Your name says it all. We are there to service the clients needs but first and foremost the horses well being is the number one priority. Most owners are not familiar with anatomy and the mechanics of the horse enough to make those decisions. Way too often owners read advertisements in horse magazines and think that they have found the cure all for their horse.
It is your responsibility as a professional farrier to make the right decision to aid that horse. If their idea is flawed, do you just give in to the owner because they are with the horse 24/7.
Personally I would be willing to take the initiative to point out the flaws in their thinking and insist on doing the best for the horse.
Even some Veterinarian's have the same problem, they get some sales pitch on a product or a style of shoe and every horse that they see needs this.
WE have one vet that wants whip across bar shoes, just a plain bar is really what he wants but adding those two words makes him feel like he's really ordering something really special for your horse.
If you are not using your training, knowledge and experience to explain to the owners, trainers, or veterinarian the flaws in their thinking, then you are not doing the best for the horse that is relying on you to help him. He is the silent partner in all this and, it is your place to stand up for him. You are his only voice and you are the expert in this area.
I am willing to walk away from a client that is ill informed because that client would rather be sold something that will not help the horse than to listen to my expertise.
You want pads on your horse fine, I'll nail them on.
Why you need pads is the information that I need to decide if it will be wedges or frog support pads, etc.
Your reasons give me the information that I need to determine what is the best pad to use, using my experience, knowledge and training. Not some add that you read.
I have had clients insist that the vet said 45 deg. when it was 54 deg.
Most owners don't notice a bent shoe, and you want to trust their judgement on how to shoe their horse. Where is your pride and faith in the knowledge that you should possess.

Gary
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RE:Cutting a Degree/wedge pad to rim? 02 Oct 2006 21:33 #18

  • Andrew Grimm
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Well said Gary,
I have a client who has several lame horses that are winning ribbons. He has decided that he wants to foxhunt the horses and told me he wanted either drive ins or borium. I suggested that for the best interest of the horses they should be drilled and taped that way for 6 out of 7 days a week they wouldn't have that permanent traction. Well, he bluntly stated that it takes to long he dosen't want to do that. So, I gave him my professional opinion and that's that. He want's to go with borium so that's what I'll do.



Andrew Grimm
Andrew Grimm, CF, RJF
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RE:Cutting a Degree/wedge pad to rim? 03 Oct 2006 00:13 #19

  • Jaye Perry
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Corey M innick wrote:

The finnished product with Equipak copper sulfate applied up to the foot surface of the shoe.

Lateral view to show a/p balance.

Corey,

Looks good. One suggestion or question. The central sulcus needs to be treated to eliminate the "Deep" infection, didn't see a pic of that type of treatment. Did you ?
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RE:Cutting a Degree/wedge pad to rim? 03 Oct 2006 01:20 #20

Jaye-

Here's the pic of the frog spine left uncovered. I instructed the client to apply Tomorrow (mastititus treatment) every 3rd day for 3 weeks, then once weekly after that. Shoeing interval is 6 weeks this time due to tight purse strings, she's not used to paying even my base prices for shoeing, this one cost her double that.

Any suggestions?
Corey A. Minnick, CJF
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RE:Cutting a Degree/wedge pad to rim? 03 Oct 2006 01:35 #21

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Corey M innick wrote:
Jaye-

Here's the pic of the frog spine left uncovered. I instructed the client to apply Tomorrow (mastititus treatment) every 3rd day for 3 weeks, then once weekly after that. Shoeing interval is 6 weeks this time due to tight purse strings, she's not used to paying even my base prices for shoeing, this one cost her double that.

Any suggestions?
Good suggestion to the client. Economics can be an issue for the soundness of a horse but with this type of foot and infectious thrush, horse owner is the key to success.
You may trying to rotate antibiotics and flossing the central sulcus or "Spine" with a 4x4 gauze to clean and apply some "Thrush Magic". Flossing can clean and debride loose materials that can contain the bacterium; feces, hays, grit and so forth.
Thrush Magic is an oxygenator; the sulcus is scissoring and irritated thus oxygen into an anaerobic enviroment gives the sulcus an opportunity to gain some continuity in a somewhat sterile enviroment.
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RE:Cutting a Degree/wedge pad to rim? 03 Oct 2006 02:09 #22

Jaye Perry wrote:
You may trying to rotate antibiotics and flossing the central sulcus or "Spine" with a 4x4 gauze to clean and apply some "Thrush Magic". Flossing can clean and debride loose materials that can contain the bacterium; feces, hays, grit and so forth.
Thrush Magic is an oxygenator; the sulcus is scissoring and irritated thus oxygen into an anaerobic enviroment gives the sulcus an opportunity to gain some continuity in a somewhat sterile enviroment.

This lady is very enthusiastic about treating the source of this guy's problem, I wish I had more clients like her. But like Kevin Costner knows "build it and they will come." I can't complain though.

On the next shoeing(and in the future), if the central sulcus deeply penetrated, and I need to use a pour in; can I use a medicated pad, such as Cusol? I have some Cusol pads that are no longer produced, and some new pads I got from an above average equine vet in the area. I don't have the name of the new pads in front of me, but you get the drift. Or is that mixing two chemicals that may have adverse results?
Corey A. Minnick, CJF
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RE:Cutting a Degree/wedge pad to rim? 03 Oct 2006 02:15 #23

  • Andrew Grimm
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Corey M innick wrote:
On the next shoeing(and in the future), if the central sulcus deeply penetrated, and I need to use a pour in; can I use a medicated pad, such as Cusol? I have some Cusol pads that are no longer produced, and some new pads I got from an above average equine vet in the area. I don't have the name of the new pads in front of me, but you get the drift. Or is that mixing two chemicals that may have adverse results?


Hey Cory,
Leather is absorbent. Maybe you can medicate a leather pad? I'm not sure how good it would do with thrush but it's worth a try. Why do you suggest medicating a pad when using the medicated pour ins?


Andrew Grimm
Andrew Grimm, CF, RJF
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RE:Cutting a Degree/wedge pad to rim? 03 Oct 2006 02:19 #24

Andrew;
That's a perfect example of when you allow the owner to dictate, to a point the way the horse is shod.
It will cause no immediate harm to the horse and you have stated your opinion.
Not always are we able to convince the owners of the right track to follow.
All we can do is voice our concerns the best we can and hope that the owner is willing to listen.
There are times when their ideas will do harm to the horse in a short time. That is when I get pretty forceful about the way I am willing to shoe their horse. If I feel that strongly about our differences, that is when I refuse to go any further with the work.
I may loose that client but, I know that I did what I thought was best for the horse, and I never regret those choices. Even if I learn years later that the idea was right, I still feel I did what I thought was right at the time.

Gary
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RE:Cutting a Degree/wedge pad to rim? 03 Oct 2006 02:30 #25

Andrew Grimm wrote:
Hey Cory,
Leather is absorbent. Maybe you can medicate a leather pad? I'm not sure how good it would do with thrush but it's worth a try. Why do you suggest medicating a pad when using the medicated pour ins?


Andrew Grimm

Sorry, the medicated pads I was referring to are 2" round cotton pads soaked in medication that I stuff down into the sulcus. Using these takes out the client's laziness factor in between shoeings. Also takes some of the blame off me when my directions aren't followed, and its still my fault.

Jaye brought up a good point with the deep bacterial infection of the frog. The Equipak copper sulfate can only treat and prevent what it can come into contact with, so that leaves the deep thrush to do what it does best: breed, and eat.
Corey A. Minnick, CJF
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RE:Cutting a Degree/wedge pad to rim? 03 Oct 2006 02:46 #26

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Corey M innick wrote:
Sorry, the medicated pads I was referring to are 2" round cotton pads soaked in medication that I stuff down into the sulcus. Using these takes out the client's laziness factor in between shoeings. Also takes some of the blame off me when my directions aren't followed, and its still my fault.

Jaye brought up a good point with the deep bacterial infection of the frog. The Equipak copper sulfate can only treat and prevent what it can come into contact with, so that leaves the deep thrush to do what it does best: breed, and eat.

I Gotcha. Thanks for clearing that up. I've seen others put medicated gauze pads in the deep infected central sulcus and put the pour ins over it however, I do believe they are still supposed to be changed. I've never tried it to see if it works but it would be interesting to see if and how good it works. NIce work by the way.

Andrew Grimm
Andrew Grimm, CF, RJF
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RE:Cutting a Degree/wedge pad to rim? 03 Oct 2006 09:40 #27

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Corey -This lady is very enthusiastic about treating the source of this guy's problem, I wish I had more clients like her. But like Kevin Costner knows "build it and they will come." I can't complain though.
Good, most customers leave it up to the farrier and vet to "cure" the maladies. Customers are 80% of the equation in a lameness or infection.
On the next shoeing(and in the future), if the central sulcus deeply penetrated, and I need to use a pour in; can I use a medicated pad, such as Cusol? I have some Cusol pads that are no longer produced, and some new pads I got from an above average equine vet in the area. I don't have the name of the new pads in front of me, but you get the drift. Or is that mixing two chemicals that may have adverse results
Sure, i have on occasion have shod the feet, packed the sulcus with cotton pads soaked or treated with medications and poured over the whole foot. usually with a dry medicate, Tucoprin, in which the sulcus is thoroughly cleaned first , treated and then covered. The covered enviroment is mostly sterile.
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RE:Cutting a Degree/wedge pad to rim? 03 Oct 2006 11:20 #28

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Have any of you tried Nolvasan (chlorhexidine diacetate), solution for flushing out these deep thrush infections? Have any of you tried White Lightning Gel?

I've had good results with both of these products. The White Lightning Gel dispenser has a tip that you can insert into the fissure in the sulcus and inject the product. This allows the owner to treat the sulcus even when you've covered the frog with a pad.

I buy the generic chlorhexidine solution from Southern States for $12.79/gal. One gallon mixed with water makes about 50gal of 2% solution. The brand name Nolvasan Solution costs about $35/gal. I use the diluted solution to wash and disinfect my hands (they also make a Nolvasan surgical scrub - same stuff, but sudzy). I keep a spray bottle of 2% mix on my rig. Squirt it on your hands, then wash it off with water. Takes away the thrush smell from your skin and disinfects open wounds. One of my customers, a medical doctor, told me that Nolvasan is a superior surgical scrub to betadyne. I like it because it doesn't burn when you use it on a cut or open wound.
Tom Bloomer
http://blackburnforge.com
302-222-6404


Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
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RE:Cutting a Degree/wedge pad to rim? 03 Oct 2006 13:53 #29

  • THamilton
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Tom,

You can also go to your Vet and get Nolvasan paste. I uesed it on a horse that had a cut. It works great. It is somewhat creamy and could be injected into the area with ease.

I have found that in the Sulcus areas, Q-Tips and a topical solution (iodine, bleach water, thrushbuster, hydrogine perioxide etc.) work well. Dip the Q-Tip into the solutions and push this through the central sulcus to clean and debride the area. I never use the same end more than once. The owner can do this as part of their treatment program and in most cases it does not matter if there is a shoe or not. Just an idea.

Tony
"Nothing astonishes men so much as common sense and plain dealing" Ralph Waldo Emerson
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RE:Cutting a Degree/wedge pad to rim? 04 Oct 2006 14:11 #30

Gary Pfeiffer wrote:
Horsehelper; Your name says it all. We are there to service the clients needs but first and foremost the horses well being is the number one priority. Most owners are not familiar with anatomy and the mechanics of the horse enough to make those decisions. Way too often owners read advertisements in horse magazines and think that they have found the cure all for their horse.
It is your responsibility as a professional farrier to make the right decision to aid that horse. If their idea is flawed, do you just give in to the owner because they are with the horse 24/7.
Personally I would be willing to take the initiative to point out the flaws in their thinking and insist on doing the best for the horse.
Even some Veterinarian's have the same problem, they get some sales pitch on a product or a style of shoe and every horse that they see needs this.
WE have one vet that wants whip across bar shoes, just a plain bar is really what he wants but adding those two words makes him feel like he's really ordering something really special for your horse.
If you are not using your training, knowledge and experience to explain to the owners, trainers, or veterinarian the flaws in their thinking, then you are not doing the best for the horse that is relying on you to help him. He is the silent partner in all this and, it is your place to stand up for him. You are his only voice and you are the expert in this area.
I am willing to walk away from a client that is ill informed because that client would rather be sold something that will not help the horse than to listen to my expertise.
You want pads on your horse fine, I'll nail them on.
Why you need pads is the information that I need to decide if it will be wedges or frog support pads, etc.
Your reasons give me the information that I need to determine what is the best pad to use, using my experience, knowledge and training. Not some add that you read.
I have had clients insist that the vet said 45 deg. when it was 54 deg.
Most owners don't notice a bent shoe, and you want to trust their judgement on how to shoe their horse. Where is your pride and faith in the knowledge that you should possess.

Gary

Gary, All perfectly correct and valid points. If I know that what the owner is suggesting is wrong I will explain why, but listen to their points as well. I want to know everything about the horse in his/hers day to day life, not just the day I get there. I want to know what the owner feels, sees, and thinks, take that into consideration as well as all other aspects of the situation.
Most owners don't know enough to do their own horses, obviously, or they wouldnt be hiring someone else to, but they do have knowledge else where (proactive owners who take a serious interest in the health and well being of their animals) Not the backyard horse owner that picks up a Horse magazine and believes that the next craze is what their horse needs, BUT the well educated, professional owner.
For a farrier like some out there, not all, to say that these owners dont know a thing, call them names behind their backs, or charge them an outrageous amount just so they don't call them back is extremely unprofessional and innapporpriate, and to me seems that these so called farriers are only in it for their egos and the money.
Not trying to get on peoples goats here, but as a farrier,owner, and with clientel that know how to educate themselves it just urks me to read how some view their clients.
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