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TOPIC: Certification Shoe Fit

RE:Certification Shoe Fit 08 Mar 2007 15:25 #61

  • calshoer
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Dusty, yes I realize this was just a shoe fit as an example of the required fit for AFA certification, and that is why I do not support their certification. It forces farriers training for it to look at the foot in a biomechanicaly incorrect manner.

Eric:
Patty- it would be great if you could change the word correctly to something else. You don't know anything about this horse, you can't possibly suggest where breakover should be.
I will stick to 'correctly'. Its my opinion where 'correct' is, and perimeter breakover is definitely not corrrect in any horse.
Actually, I could tell you with fair accuracy where the solar margin of P3 lies in inside that foot, without an Xray,by reading the sole structures.
Consequently, a farrier familiar with sole mapping can also tell about where the breakover should be relative to the bone, and perimeter is definitely not the correct place.

As to our request for a picture of NB shoe fit on a clubby or otherwise narrow foot, Im sure it would not meet your criteria for 'correct', if you think perimter breakover is OK. ;)

Patty
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RE:Certification Shoe Fit 08 Mar 2007 16:27 #62

Patty,

After all these years, I still have many moments of doubt about one thing or another, but I never see/hear that from you. Your confidence inspires me and makes me want to keep studying and shoeing until I understand things completely.
calshoer wrote:
I would hope you would have pulled that perimiter fit practice shoe off and reshod him to get the breakover point back more correctly .(like at least an inch back from where it is).
I can't figure out how to save out php files and draw on them, so I'll have to go with wurds on this one... Assuming that this shoe has a 3/4" web width, if one were to set it back "at least an inch," the inside web would be bumping the apex of the frog. So would you set it back to there, or would you roll it?
calshoer wrote:
Its my opinion where 'correct' is, and perimeter breakover is definitely not corrrect in any horse.
So your complaint is not with the perimeter fit but with the perimeter breakover?
~~Danvers

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RE:Certification Shoe Fit 08 Mar 2007 20:43 #63

Mr. Tom,
You are as astute as usual. I love to build shoes, but I make my living resetting horses. I can do a good job reseting four shoes in 30 to 40 minutes, but it will take me an hour to an hour and a half depending on the myriad variables to put four new shoes on a horse, but can only charge nominally more for the extra work. I do not heat Al shoes at all ( I used to clip them, but learned they last longer if I shape them cold) and if I have done my job correctly I will cold set unclipped shoes untill they are dead and not even need to stand up until I move to the next foot. I will heat clipped shoes to burn the clips in, but I have been known for the sake of expediency, a pad package, distance to the forge, or a horse who has a severe allergic reaction to hoofsmoke, to cold fit clips. If you did it right the first time, the forge is not NECCASARY to do it right again.
That being said, I think most often, especialy with steel that a forge is required to do it right the first time. Shoes need seated, sweetened, stretched and slicked up to be ideal and fire allows this to be done easily.
Jason
"Always listen to the experts. They tell you what can't be done, and why. Then do it." Robert Heinlien
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RE:Certification Shoe Fit 08 Mar 2007 23:24 #64

  • calshoer
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I can't figure out how to save out php files and draw on them, so I'll have to go with wurds on this one... Assuming that this shoe has a 3/4" web width, if one were to set it back "at least an inch," the inside web would be bumping the apex of the frog. So would you set it back to there, or would you roll it?
Roll or rocker, and maybe set the shoe back a litle as needed, it would depend on the web of the shoe.
So your complaint is not with the perimeter fit but with the perimeter breakover?
Exactly.
But I will have issues with perimeter fit as well, if it is fit to a stretched /distorted toe.
I will perimeter fit a St.Croix eventer for example, IF the foot is well shaped, perfectly balanced and *completey free* of toe distortion relative to the position of the bone. In other words, if the breakover point of the shoe can be in the place I map it relative to P3 without setting the shoe back.
Patty
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RE:Certification Shoe Fit 09 Mar 2007 03:45 #65

  • BS-Horseshoeing
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OK, here's some hoof shots to critique and let me know where I need to improve for the CF test. Thanks.

Left Front



Right Front
Ben Sturman
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Folks who think traditional farriery means perimeter fit don't know a heluva lot about shoeing. Tom Stovall,...
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RE:Certification Shoe Fit 09 Mar 2007 03:50 #66

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Now the hinds.

Right Hind


Left Hind

Sorry, not the greatest pics, but the horse the closest to the test specifics I could find. Could have spit and polished a little more but no time as owner was waiting to go riding. Thanks for any help and advice.
Ben Sturman
AFA CF #7558

Tough times never last, but tough people do!

Beware the lollipop of mediocrity, one lick and you will suck for ever!

Folks who think traditional farriery means perimeter fit don't know a heluva lot about shoeing. Tom Stovall,...
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RE:Certification Shoe Fit 09 Mar 2007 04:26 #67

  • FIVESTAR
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Ben,

By looking at the photos, you need to remember that the nail placement should be higher at the toe than at the heel. Also, it looks like the foot had to be rasped back to the shoe at the dorsal wall. The shoe should fit the foot that you trim and not need to be rasped after nailing other than to clinch your nails. It looks like your heel length is nice. Remember, the score sheet for certification has a fit score six separate times so practice your shoe fit as much as possible.

Thanks for posting and keep at it... Have you had a chance to see the certification score sheets? If not, let me know and I can send you one so you'll know what you'll be scored on....

Thanks,

Dusty
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RE:Certification Shoe Fit 09 Mar 2007 05:38 #68

  • BS-Horseshoeing
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Thank you Dusty. I have not seen the score sheets, if you would email me one that would be great. It's BSHorseshoeing at aol dot com.

The nail placement usually comes out in a straight line unless I am concentrating on getting it right. Like this horse, I just decided to get some pics to see where I was at and wish I would have thought of it before hand and did a much neater job and had a better camera and location for pics. Hopefully I will get a better idea where I am at and what to work on at the pre cert next weekend. Again, thanks for the input.
Ben Sturman
AFA CF #7558

Tough times never last, but tough people do!

Beware the lollipop of mediocrity, one lick and you will suck for ever!

Folks who think traditional farriery means perimeter fit don't know a heluva lot about shoeing. Tom Stovall,...
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RE:Certification Shoe Fit 09 Mar 2007 14:29 #69

  • Gary_Miller
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Ben if you haven't seen the score sheet then you must not have a study guide as the sheets with expination on how they are suppose to be scores are in the back.

Call the AFA office and they will send you one out. Or you can down load it of of the AFA web site.
Gary Miller, PF

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RE:Certification Shoe Fit 09 Mar 2007 15:29 #70

FIVESTAR wrote:
By looking at the photos, you need to remember that the nail placement should be higher at the toe than at the heel. Also, it looks like the foot had to be rasped back to the shoe at the dorsal wall. The shoe should fit the foot that you trim and not need to be rasped after nailing other than to clinch your nails. It looks like your heel length is nice. Remember, the score sheet for certification has a fit score six separate times so practice your shoe fit as much as possible.

Thanks for posting and keep at it... Have you had a chance to see the certification score sheets? If not, let me know and I can send you one so you'll know what you'll be scored on....

Hey Ben,

As usual, Dusty's advice is bang on. Getting the nail height up and getting a nail line that follows the hairline would dress this job up well and kick the scoring up. As he says, knowing the score sheet well is a major element to getting through the test successfully, and once you look at it closely, you realize that several areas (such as fit) get scored several times. Another area that gets hit several times is level/flat: the foot is scored for it in the trim, and the shoe is scored for it as well, and you're also scored on it several times under the category of "wall contact." In your photos, it looks as if you don't have great wall contact at the heel, so you'll want to watch that as well.

Good on ya for working on this stuff!!!
~~Danvers

Danvers Child, CJF

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RE:Certification Shoe Fit 09 Mar 2007 18:18 #71

  • BS-Horseshoeing
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Gary, I have the old booklet and have requested a new one from the office. Should be here pretty soon. So I know some of the scoring but have not really looked at it as of late. When the new one gets here I will study it fairly closely.



Danvers, thanks for the info. Ii see what you mean by the wall contact at the heel. Just a question, could that be a bit of an illusion since the boxing is a little away from the wall and you are seeing the flat foot surface of the shoe? Just asking.
Ben Sturman
AFA CF #7558

Tough times never last, but tough people do!

Beware the lollipop of mediocrity, one lick and you will suck for ever!

Folks who think traditional farriery means perimeter fit don't know a heluva lot about shoeing. Tom Stovall,...
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RE:Certification Shoe Fit 09 Mar 2007 18:43 #72

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OK, here's a couple more from another horse. Just for comparison sake of the others. This one is fit a bit tighter cause he runs barrels and can pluck a shoe quicker'n I can put it on. The toe rasping was done before the shoe application to remove some flare an even out the wall as someone mentioned in an earlier post.

Left Front


Right Front


Thanks again guys. This really helps.
Ben Sturman
AFA CF #7558

Tough times never last, but tough people do!

Beware the lollipop of mediocrity, one lick and you will suck for ever!

Folks who think traditional farriery means perimeter fit don't know a heluva lot about shoeing. Tom Stovall,...
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RE:Certification Shoe Fit 09 Mar 2007 19:55 #73

  • Bill Adams
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Ben,
On feet like these, put a ruller or rasp on edge on the dorsal wall and get it straight then hit it with a finish/show file then sanding sponge. I like the course sponges they will remove scraches and are smother than a finish file. This should be done before your first scoring of your trim. BTW work is looking good.
Bill

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RE:Certification Shoe Fit 10 Mar 2007 01:12 #74

  • Jim Sweeney
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Dusty or Danvers, On the first pictures of the hind feet that Ben posted, since the camera angle is looking a bit downward showing a good angle to view the shoe fit, could you make any comments on the heel fit as regards to the A,B, or C fit. And maybe compare it to the tighter fit of the latter photos of the barrel horse. Thanks
Jim Sweeney

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RE:Certification Shoe Fit 11 Mar 2007 04:38 #75

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Jim,

For certification purposes, the second set of photos would be closer to what the AFA is looking for in perimeter fit. The first set of photos looks to be a "C fit" and the last set looks to be a "B fit". "A fit" would have no boxing. One of the keys is to practice all three fits so that at certification you will be able to fit whatever horse you draw to work on. It's not passing the test that makes you a better horseshoer --- It's what you learn on the journey to passing your certification that will make you a better horseshoer. Good luck!!!

I appreciate these guys stepping up and asking for opinions. That's a big step that can only help them get better.

Dusty
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