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TOPIC: Certification Shoe Fit

RE:Certification Shoe Fit 25 Feb 2007 02:23 #16

  • George Geist
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Dusty,
I'm sure a few people here most especially Mr Stovall will look upon what I'm going to say as a cheap shot. It's not intended to be but if they take it that way then so be it.

I have seen heel length as a good all around catch 22 situation. Many guys have been stopped over heel length. What is ok with one tester is not with another and so on.

We can all agree that it should cover the buttresses but how much after that? 1/2"? 3/4"? what? Seemed to depend often on personal whims and moods. (Ok get ready guys here it comes) This was the singular best way that if somebody didnt want you to pass that test you wouldn't.(You can quote me on that one)

Now, it would appear to the casual observer that this A,B,orC thing is an attempt at trying to fix this problem without having to admit that there is a problem.

I have my doubts that it will help much as it seems to add to the confusion and create one more thing to argue about.
George
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RE:Certification Shoe Fit 25 Feb 2007 02:37 #17

  • Andrew Grimm
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Rick Burten wrote:
Why? Shouldn't a candidate for either the CF or CTF credential possess the requisite knowledge, skill and ability to make a decision on heel fit and then be able to actually implement it?


Why? Because most canidates taking the test use pre made shoes and unless you have a shoe that fits perfectly for the fit you specify than one must either stetch the branche/s or choose a larger shoe and cut off the heel/s which takes more time. Should one know how to do this? Yes. Does that require a higher level of competence? Yes. I guess I feel that maybe there's room for exception for someone taking the CF test. There should absolutley be no excuses for heel length and expansion for one taking the CJF test because your cutting the appropriate length of stock to fit the foot with the fit you specify.
This is just a personal opinion I have. On one side I understand where your coming from and on the other side I know how I felt when taking the CF test and worrying about weather the shoe I picked was going to fit properly for the fit I specified or not. Not that I couldn't and didn't know how to do it but having to do it under the gun was nerveracking. If I were making a handmade shoe than I wouldn't have to worry about because I cut the appropriate lenght of stock. I thought this might be more suited for someone taking the CJF test.


Seems to me that we are trying to promote competence not incompetence.

Rick


We should be.
Andrew Grimm, CF, RJF
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RE:Certification Shoe Fit 25 Feb 2007 02:45 #18

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FIVESTAR wrote:

you have to remember that once you tell the tester or Examiner what type of fit you are going to apply, you will be judged to that standard.

Dusty


And you will be stopped if the fit is not what you specify. I got stopped once because my fit was not what I'd specified. The shoe did cover the heel but was not the length I specified therefore the test was stopped. I'm not sure that was worth getting stopped over becuase the shoe was nailable. I picked my head up, practiced and got it right the next time and passed the CF exam but I'm still entitled to my opinions.
Andrew Grimm, CF, RJF
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RE:Certification Shoe Fit 25 Feb 2007 03:17 #19

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Andrew,

I'm glad you stayed with it and got your CF. Your story proves true that the system does indeed work...

I didn't intend for this thread to be a he said/she said topic but one to help those trying to succeed in passing their practical in certification. I would hope that all of us that did work hard, put our nose down and "git r done" would want to explain to those following in their paths that the process of learning what we learn to pass the test is well worth the journey. Let's be positive to those working towards their CF and CJF... If at first you don't succeed.......

Dusty
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RE:Certification Shoe Fit 25 Feb 2007 03:39 #20

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FIVESTAR wrote:

I didn't intend for this thread to be a he said/she said topic but one to help those trying to succeed in passing their practical in certification. Let's be positive to those working towards their CF and CJF... If at first you don't succeed.......

Dusty


Dusty,
My apologies; I didn't mean to start taking this thread in another direction.
Andrew Grimm, CF, RJF
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RE:Certification Shoe Fit 25 Feb 2007 03:41 #21

  • BS-Horseshoeing
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Dusty, on the fit as you were explaining it, it should be perimiter before the finish and clinching is done. So, if the foot had a lateral toe flare, is it ok to rasp the flare off, then perimiter fit the shoe as it should be? I guess what I'm asking is can the front and sides of the hoof wall be dressed before the shoe fit is done to get the walls straight? And then fit the shoe to the perimiter as prescribed, or do we have to perimiter fit to the flare? Just asking as I have not taken the test yet but will be in April. Trying to get all the info possible. Thanks
Ben Sturman
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Tough times never last, but tough people do!

Beware the lollipop of mediocrity, one lick and you will suck for ever!

Folks who think traditional farriery means perimeter fit don't know a heluva lot about shoeing. Tom Stovall,...
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RE:Certification Shoe Fit 25 Feb 2007 05:31 #22

George Geist wrote:
I have seen heel length as a good all around catch 22 situation. Many guys have been stopped over heel length. What is ok with one tester is not with another and so on.

We can all agree that it should cover the buttresses but how much after that? 1/2"? 3/4"? what? Seemed to depend often on personal whims and moods. (Ok get ready guys here it comes) This was the singular best way that if somebody didnt want you to pass that test you wouldn't.(You can quote me on that one)
It's pretty straightforward. It's stated on page 43 of the AFA publication, Farrier Certification Program,

The correct length varies with hoof conformation...
a. An upright or club foot is fit with length equal to the width of a dime (1/16")
b. A normal, balanced foot is fit with length equal to the width of two dimes (1/8")
c. An under-run foot is fit with length equal to the width of three dimes (3/16")

Note: If a candidate does not declare an a,b, or c fit, the Tester is to assume that the candidate is fitting to the b (or "normal") standard--regardless of the Tester's personal assessment of the foot type.

This information is unchanged from the previous publication (Certification Study Guide) where it appears on page 45.
George Geist wrote:
Now, it would appear to the casual observer that this A,B,orC thing is an attempt at trying to fix this problem without having to admit that there is a problem.
No matter what the "appearance," the reason for the inclusion of the "A, B, or C thing" was that the Certification Committee was attempting to address complaints about the test not allowing the candidate to address different foot types and needs. Traditionally, the three things that most often get complained about are perimeter fit, amount of expansion, and amount of length. The committee decided that it would not make exception concerning the perimeter fit; however, they introduced the A, B, and C fits for expansion and length.

My personal observation of the reception to the change is that nobody appears to have embraced it and said anything about how nice it was that the Certification Committee listened to and responded to complaints; instead my feeling is that, as you indicate, "it seems to add to the confusion and create one more thing to argue about."

Ultimately, you're going to have a small percentage of people who are going to voice complaints (often publicly and often loudly) about the test no matter what you do.
~~Danvers

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RE:Certification Shoe Fit 25 Feb 2007 06:36 #23

BS-Horseshoeing wrote:
if the foot had a lateral toe flare, is it ok to rasp the flare off, then perimiter fit the shoe as it should be? I guess what I'm asking is can the front and sides of the hoof wall be dressed before the shoe fit is done to get the walls straight? And then fit the shoe to the perimiter as prescribed, or do we have to perimiter fit to the flare?
kinda hesitant on this, as you're addressing it specifically to Dusty, but I'm sure he'll step in and add to this if necessary....

If the foot has a lateral toe flare, it's probably something you've already lost points for in the "Hoof Preparation" section of the test. You're expected to address flaring in your trim. It gets covered in A/P balance, M/L balance, and Hoof Wall Dressing & Edges. Overall, you pretty much end up using hoof wall thickness as your guide.

If you've got severe distortions, you're not going to be able to address them aggressively in the way you might in your daily work, but you're going to do what you can to improve on them without thinning the wall or creating problems.

In the end, you might be placed in a situation where you will fit more flare than you would in your daily practice, but you're not going to simply leave a flare and fit to the distortion.
~~Danvers

Danvers Child, CJF

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RE:Certification Shoe Fit 25 Feb 2007 08:03 #24

  • FIVESTAR
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Very well said Danvers... And good luck on your CJF Andrew...


Dusty
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RE:Certification Shoe Fit 25 Feb 2007 09:42 #25

  • smitty88
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George Geist wrote:
Hey Smitty,
The test their talking about IS the British WCF test. The AFA took their test and scoring procedure and use it virtually unchanged.

Does Ireland have such a testing? If they have one is it required by law?

Just wondering.
George


George,
when i was doing my appenticeship we trained in Hereford
college England and Ireland

we sat our exam in Ireland

RF (Bngc)MF(IMFA)

at the moment we have a 4 year apprenticeship
if you pass that your a MF (IMFA)
Smitty88
John Mc Loughlin
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RE:Certification Shoe Fit 25 Feb 2007 15:14 #26

  • smitty88
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Dusty,
any more perimeter fits to look at
i dident get to use my camera this week

will have somthing next week
Smitty88
John Mc Loughlin
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RE:Certification Shoe Fit 25 Feb 2007 15:43 #27

  • Andrew Grimm
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FIVESTAR wrote:
And good luck on your CJF Andrew...


Dusty


Thank you Dusty; I'm working on it.
Andrew Grimm, CF, RJF
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RE:Certification Shoe Fit 25 Feb 2007 15:50 #28

  • Andrew Grimm
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danverschild wrote:
kinda hesitant on this, as you're addressing it specifically to Dusty, but I'm sure he'll step in and add to this if necessary....

If the foot has a lateral toe flare, it's probably something you've already lost points for in the "Hoof Preparation" section of the test. You're expected to address flaring in your trim. It gets covered in A/P balance, M/L balance, and Hoof Wall Dressing & Edges. Overall, you pretty much end up using hoof wall thickness as your guide.

If you've got severe distortions, you're not going to be able to address them aggressively in the way you might in your daily work, but you're going to do what you can to improve on them without thinning the wall or creating problems.

In the end, you might be placed in a situation where you will fit more flare than you would in your daily practice, but you're not going to simply leave a flare and fit to the distortion.


And correct me if I'm wrong but if one's ever in doubt about how a diificult foot should be fit then he or she should ask the examiner how he want's it fit. An example would be if you had a foot that the medial quarter and heel was rolled towards the frog. One might ask the examiner weather he would like it fit to the wall with the appropriate heel lenght and expansion or to fit the shoe in a fashion that would support the rolled under, crushed heel.
Andrew Grimm, CF, RJF
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RE:Certification Shoe Fit 25 Feb 2007 18:18 #29

Andrew Grimm wrote:
And correct me if I'm wrong but if one's ever in doubt about how a diificult foot should be fit then he or she should ask the examiner how he want's it fit. An example would be if you had a foot that the medial quarter and heel was rolled towards the frog. One might ask the examiner weather he would like it fit to the wall with the appropriate heel lenght and expansion or to fit the shoe in a fashion that would support the rolled under, crushed heel.

kinda sorta...

If a candidate simply poses the question, "What should I do here?"... I pretty much won't tell him anything. But if a candidate gives me several plans of approach that he might use, I'll discuss the pros and cons of those approaches with him in a general manner. I still won't tell him what to do, but I'll answer his specific questions and make references to how the particular situation fits in with the exam and the scoring system.

It's a difficult rope to walk. The candidate is supposed to have familiarized himself with the exam and the scoring system enough make his own judgement calls once there's a horse in front of him.

I do want the candidate to go over the horse and point things out, telling me what he perceives as problems and potential problems in meeting the objective. But there's a huge difference between his asking me "What should I do with that flare? and telling me "I've got a big flare here, that I'm not going to be able to completely address in the trim. I'm thinking that I will probably do X, but I could also do Y. Which one is my better choice?"

Basically, I try really hard to be helpful, but I try really hard not to be directive. I suppose other Testers approach it differently, and this probably IS one of those areas where we lack consistency.
~~Danvers

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RE:Certification Shoe Fit 26 Feb 2007 17:14 #30

  • smitty88
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Dusty,
got a chance to bash out a pair of hinds off the hammer 15 mins
happy enough with the perimeter fit you were looking for

my camera had one shot left card was full holidays pics
if i deleted them i was done for

try get a chance to make another pair i need the practice
rusty as hell


the section was 7/8 x 1/2
Smitty88
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