Phil Armitage wrote:
I've heard all manor of excuses but I know for a fact that many times that's all they are is excuses...not reasons.
I haven't found many of these people interested in really treating the founder. Most often they just get them trimmed every couple of years when they can no longer walk at all.

These animals do get along...sort of...but they usually don't do anything but stand and eat and they don't need to be very sound for that.

I can't say that I've leaned a whole lot by doing this kind of work but I don't turn it down outright like some farriers do. These days I do charge for it and insist that owners of the ones that don't stand get a vet out to tranq them. When some of these people find out what it's going to cost them, they pass. When I say, I charge for it, I mean that I've already charged some of these people in excess of $100 for a trim. You'd think that would give them some incentive to have it done on a more regular basis but that's not my experience. They usually just go on doing what they've been doing, though, they might get on the phone and look for a chump that will do it for regular trimming fees.

This, of course, goes beyond the foundered pony folks. I know plenty of people with barefoot backyard horses that feel a good trim by a farrier is in order once a year or once every other year whether the animal needs it or not. I even have a few folks with livery horses that don't have them done but two or three times a year.

I'm about ready to start charging for a trim every 8 weeks anyway. I don't know about the rest of you but it just takes too much time (and work) for me to trim some of these things with big old long feet that are as hard as rock to make any money doing it unless I start at double a regular trim price and go up from there. I can actually reset a show-shod saddlebred (that's a $200 diddy) in about the same time that it takes me to do a nice trim on some of these buggers...if you could ever call anything a nice trim because they are so out of wack that you never get the chance to get them right. Worse, to add insult to injury, should you peel out some retained sole and one get a little ouchy your name is going to be mud. In my experience, the only way to "win" with these things is to charge appropriately for the work and the risk right from the start. When I refer to my experience here, I mean that I have done about a million of these things for "regular trim prices" thinking that I was helping an animal and investing in a client only to get nothing more than a lot of work and kick in the fanny for my trouble.

I don't care how much you want to help the animal of the owner you have to approach it like a business.

Phil Armitage wrote:

Bill Adams wrote:

Bill Adams wrote:
Agreed.... been at this for 36 years, and I've got a list of people that I call when I need help. Sometimes it's a phone call, but sometimes it's a trip. We should always be looking to learn, but not at the expense of the horse... first rule is to do no harm.

danverschild wrote:
After 36 years or my 8 years we both have learned that not all horse owners can afford those people on our referal list and we also know we need to start somewhere. I highly doubt you did not learn at the expense of horses. Stateing not to learn at the expense of a horse is nonsense and idealism. We all learn at the expense of many things. Not a perfect world my friend. Barefooters are claiming you and I are evil when we nail on shoes. Maybe they are right. Can you or I prove otherwise or are we learning at the expense of many horses. How many horses will you do harm to before you learn NB. Or the AFA can say how many horses will be harmed before we learn how to parimeter fit properly. So many ways we can argue as to what is right or wrong. At least a new guy is not going to go too far, most of the time rookies don't trim enough and in a case with founder less is more. Don't forget many horses do pretty good without us.

Or are you trying to sell yourself as a good referal for new horsesoers by convinceing them they will do harm.

Phil,
Sure we all learned with out proper instruction. I don't want my boys to learn Farriery the way I did and I don't want my daughters to learn about men the way the girls I went out with did.
Read the thread, the owners will spend money. Jeremy should assist them in this and learn more, more quickly, and set up good working relations and a referal base.

Bill Adams wrote:
Jeremy already said he has help and he is comeing here to ask questions. Good for him. I totaly agree with you Bill, good advice. I hope your boys realise how lucky they are. I know a lot of father and son buisnesses where the son has not had to build up the buisness and therefore lack appreciation and understanding for the efforts the father put into building the foundation. Sometimes the son wants to breakaway and build the buisness from scratch like others do. Nothing wrong with that, but some Dads have a hard time accepting this. My 18 year old daughter wants to build and control her buisness so that she can say she did it. She has a hard time accepting help, I like that gumption in a person. It is called pride. Ever notice we teach young people to take pride in what they do then tell them not to be too proud to accept help. We help her out in anyway we can without takeing over, so far she has done well with it. Being selfemployed means you are your owne boss, it is the single most important reason for selfemployment. When others start to tell you what and how to do things, then you might as well work for someone.

Phil Armitage wrote:
Yes. I was at a local sale barn last night and watched a number of horses sell for under $100. I suspect that the majority of the people who purchased these horses will not expect to pay a lot for their upkeep.

Phil Armitage wrote:
Yes. I've done my share of damage. It would have been nice if someone were there to temper my enthusiasm with realism and experience and keep me from doing some of the ****** things I did. Sheesh... some drunk drivers learn not to drive drunk by killing people and some people learn gun safety after they shoot their toes off.
Phil Armitage wrote: Gee. I guess time will tell.
Phil Armitage wrote: How presumptuous of you. I must have wasted my time reading about NB, reading and reviewing Gene's manuscripts before they were published, serving as a beta-tester for the WRP, attending his clinics, and visiting with him and others who practice this approach.

Phil Armitage wrote: Will you never understand that the AFA is using a prescriptive method for a standardized test rather than promoting and forwarding an approach for daily practices?Phil Armitage wrote:
Apparently not productively...
Phil Armitage wrote: Our experiences and observations differ. I find that more often than not, newbies err by taking too much.
Phil Armitage wrote: If you notice a vitriolic tone in my responses above, you're correct, and they were primarily a result of this comment. You're a disrespectful man, Phil. I challenge you to find a horseshoer, new or old, that I've charged when asked for advice or consult.

I came onto these boards before you started shoeing horses. Henry Heymering and I were pretty much the only farriers here. Hell, Tom Stovall was about the only other farrier on the internet at the time, over on rec.equestrian.

I left because people like you came on here to snipe and blow snot and argue over petty tripe, focusing more on confrontation, debate, and being right rather than on providing service to owners and farriers who really wanted discussion and information. It's become a "get the popcorn," voyeuristic arena... Saturday Night Fights 24/7. The knowledge and education are still here, you just have to wade through the blood to get it.

You wish to argue for the sake of arguing, and now I'm furious with myself for allowing you to suck me into that small room. You've made me tired and nothing productive can result from this. I'm done.

Danvers, I mean no direspect. I am sick of Veteran farriers trying to sqaush the enthusiam of new horseshoers. How presumptious of you to think Jeremy anyone is out there to learn at the expense of a horse. Just because a person does not have a lot of hours under a horse does not make them a ******. Glad you learned NB, good for you. Did it help you? What do you think of how to map out the feet for balance. As for the AFA, I know the standards are there for testing purposes. When will you get it that a lot of young farriers think those standards are how to properly shoe horses? This has been my argument from the start. So when the heck is the AFA going to teach how to properly trim? Waiting!!

This is why it is important to apprenctice.

Phil Armitage wrote:
Phil,
this is what you sugested and incouraged Jeremy to do. Have you ever read here that people think you want to argue for arguement's sake? What makes so many people think the same thing? Give ti a rest.
Bill

danverschild wrote:
That is BS Danvers, I have received help from many and helped many on this forum and the dialouge was very friendly and professional. I also see the blood shed on here from many and have gotten sucked in myself. Then get attacked by some when people only read portions of the threads and develop percecptions. But I don't stop comeing here and let petty BS and judgmental personalities get to me. I really don't give a **** if you or anyone else has a problem with me based on how you percieve and judge things you read.

Bill Adams wrote:
Bill, you give it a rest. Jeremy PM'd me and thanked me for the vote of confidence. He also asked questions and I gave him some pointers. To his credit he is asking questions. I really don't care what others think. Everyone likes to read into things and make it a blood letting. I will argue and if one does not like it, all they have to do is skip over it. Not a big deal. There are many on here that I ignore sometimes add to my ignore list. If your tired of my rant then just add me to your ignore list. It won't hurt my feelings.

Phil,
Well then I stand corected.
Share with us all how you helped Jeremy put four clips per shoes on a pony that foundered in the hind insted of going with the willing owners to a Vet.
A new kid getting someone to approve of their forays into the incorect and appreciating the encoragement? Well that's unique.
I think this is a spot where you too should defer to more experenced Farriers, as once agian, everyone will start picking on Phil.
Bill

danverschild wrote:
Danvers I owe you an apology, I did not mean to argue for argument sake. I took what you said out of context, primarily reading to fast and jumping to cunclusions. When you said you had a list of people to call for help I took it as you had a list of people to refer to. Sorry. I agree with this and the point you made about learning.

I quess I get a little peturbed about things I have seen in my neck of the woods. Horse owners desperately trying to find a farrier and do the right thing for there foundered pony. I have learned that most of them do pretty good with a trim every 3-4 weeks. So many farriers will turn this work down. Fortunately not all farriers turn it down. It also gets me when another farrier makes the remark that owners are always trying to find the cheapest farrier or uses so and so because they are cheap. I have seen some sad cases with owners willing to pay and still not get decent help.

The part about the expense of the horse, well I have not seen situations where a horse has suffered because someone is eager to help and learn. I have seen some pretty seasoned farrier do some pretty ****** things though. It seems the more confident the more agressive the trimming. Talk about sore pony.

Anyways sorry I took what you said out of context. I have no problem admiting when I am wrong.

Regards

Bill Adams wrote:
I don't think Jeremy knows what he wants to do yet. I have no clue what he should do without seeing the feet. I recommended he be carefull. Have a nice night Bill. Talk to you later. If everyone wants to start picking on Phil, go for it, whatever gets your rocks off.