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TOPIC: Measuring barstock

Measuring barstock 03 Feb 2006 00:27 #1

  • Hoofangler
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In an attempt to make life easier.... What formula do you use to measure barstock for handmades?
For concave fullered I use the cir***ference minus two times the width of the stock. But, then I have to take off a little extra.
For flat stock I use the formula in Butlers H2. But, that only works if I fuller and then I might have to stretch it a tad.
I'd appreciate it if you would share your method...maybe one might be the one that works for someone else (like me!). :o
Thanks,
Mike
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RE:Measuring barstock 03 Feb 2006 01:59 #2

  • Tom Stovall CJF
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Hoofangler in gray

In an attempt to make life easier.... What formula do you use to measure barstock for handmades?


If you'll double the diagonal and add the distance between the butresses, you'll be mighty close for stamped shoes, a bit long for creased.
Tom Stovall, CJF
"The only foolish question is the one left unasked."
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RE:Measuring barstock 03 Feb 2006 02:52 #3

  • Red Amor
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Gday Tom , and Fisher of hooves

When you say you measure the cir***ferance , is the from one heel to the next or from one heel around and back to the same heel the subtract the 2x stock width ?

Tom
Mate the diagonal is it from toe to buttress of heel


I was tought width + length plus 2" for plane stamped and 1,1/2 " for your to fuller the flat bar stock

and 2" if useing concaved bar stock Ithink?

Tom do you use the cir***ference measureing trick to measure for bar shoes

Thanks guys ;)
Mark Anthony Amor
If we want anymore excrement like that outta you we'll squeese ya head :eek:
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RE:Measuring barstock 03 Feb 2006 09:31 #4

  • smitty88
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you measure from toe to heel
then measure the widest part of the foot

ad both measurements
if it a ponie foot up to 5 inches ad 1 1/2 inches for toe bend


any bigger alow 2 inches for toe bend
this is for concave iron

you also have to consider the width of you stock
what type of heels your putting on

if its hunter heels you cut less
than if it was up right heels

if your making a shoe for foot
you keep the shape of the foot in mind



running out to work but i wil get back
to you

there is more to it measuring a foot
than you think
Smitty88
John Mc Loughlin
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RE:Measuring barstock 04 Feb 2006 03:30 #5

  • Hoofangler
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Thanks for the input:

Red,
To answer your question, it's the cir***ference from heel to opposite heel minus 2x the width of the stock for fullered concave. Don't measure between the buttresses. (hoofangler= "Will shoe anywhere near a trout stream").G'day.

Plain stamped 3/4" stock is pretty close at cir***ference minus 2 1/8".

Tom,
I'll give that a shot on Monday, thanks.

Keep it coming, Smitty !

Thanks,
Mike Givney CF
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RE:Measuring barstock 05 Feb 2006 11:33 #6

  • smitty88
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getting back to your question mike
if your fullering most people gain 1/2 inch

by fullering.
this also depends how you work the section
some under work so the need more iron
some over work they need less iron

when you measure a foot always measure
where you want the heel of the shoe to end

its a good habit

hope this helps you

keep maken them
Smitty88
John Mc Loughlin
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RE:Measuring barstock 05 Feb 2006 13:07 #7

This has remained consistent for me:
measure to where I want the shoe to end (usually the check ends at the back of the frog)
5/16x3/4 plain-subtract 2 inches
5/16x7/8 plain- subtract 2 1/4 inches
3/8x 1 plain- subtract 2 1/2 inches
5/16 x 5/8 plain-subtract 1 3/4
by bumping the toe for fullering. the numbers stay the same in a fullered shoe
concave-
3/8x5/8-subtract 1 1/2
3/8x3/4-subtract 1 3/4
3/8x7/8-subtract 2
7/16x1 -subtract 2 1/4
works for me, though my 3/8 x 1 always seem a little long, so maybe subtract 5/8 of an inch
hope that helps,
Jason
"Always listen to the experts. They tell you what can't be done, and why. Then do it." Robert Heinlien
Jason Maki CJF, RJF
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RE:Measuring barstock 05 Feb 2006 17:03 #8

  • Wannabeee
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Jason where are you getting 7/16x1 concave?? please and thx Scott
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RE:Measuring barstock 05 Feb 2006 18:35 #9

Harry Patton--they sell them precut, so I buy a few 20 inch peices and cut them as I need
Jason
"Always listen to the experts. They tell you what can't be done, and why. Then do it." Robert Heinlien
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RE:Measuring barstock 05 Feb 2006 19:04 #10

  • Jack Evers
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If you'd like to put a little theory to this, a piece of steel will deform around it's neutral axis (the center of the barstock), hence if I cut 12 inches of 3/4 inch stock and forge it into a circle (it doesn't have to be a perfectly round circle, merely bent around 360 degrees., the center of the steel will still be 12 inches long and the outer cir***frence will be Pi times the stock width longer. For us hammer wielding types, the use of Pi equals 3 instead of Pi equals 3.1416... is close enough.

Since a shoe is about 2/3 of a circle we will actually stretch about twice the stock width (2/3 times 3) or 1-1/2 inches for 3/4 inch stock. Try it, leave the heels square and try to keep the cross section uniform. Then shaping the heels, seating out, fullering, hemming, etc all add length while bumping up will subtract. This individual forging stretch is what you must determine, but for most farriers it will add approx a half inch of stretch or two inches total for 3/4 inch stock.

Look at Phil's chart. He subtracts 2 inches from his measurement for 3/4 inch stock and has a further adjustment of 1/4 inch for each 1/8 inch of stock width (i.e. subtract 2-1/4 inches for 7/8 inch stock). Just what would be predicted.

The concave does not stretch as much, because the center of the stock is relatively weak and closes up some during forging. All I could suggest for it would be to do as Phil probably did and determine expeimentally how it reacts to your style of forging.

Hope this adds some understanding.

Jack
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RE:Measuring barstock 05 Feb 2006 20:37 #11

  • Red Amor
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thanks guys bewdy
Mark Anthony Amor
If we want anymore excrement like that outta you we'll squeese ya head :eek:
Mind how ya go now ;)
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RE:Measuring barstock 05 Feb 2006 21:53 #12

  • Mike Ferrara
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Good explaination Jack but I'd like to add a couple of points.

Basing our estimate on the equation for the cir***ference of a circle (Pie*D or 2*pie*R) is still an estimate because it does matter whether the shape is circular or not. Lots of shapes move around 360 degrees but circle equations are only valid for those that are indeed circles. So, the further the foot/shoe deviates from "round" the further off the estimate will be. A more accurate method of determining stock requirements is to break the shape down into sections and figure radiuses and straight sections seperately although we usually get close enough on shoes without getting that picky especially since other forging oporations like creasing will further effect the accuracy of the estimate.

BTW, 22/7 is a good approximation for pie comming in at 3.1428

A good book for some examples is "Plain and Ornamental Forging" by Ernst Schwarzkopf. I'm sure there are lots of others but that's one that I'm familiar with.
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RE:Measuring barstock 06 Feb 2006 17:45 #13

  • Jack Evers
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Mike
I didn't mean to imply that we could measure some arbitrary average diameter of a non circular shape and multiply it by Pi to get the cir***frence. You're right, it wouldn't work and indeed our bar stock would probably be short since a true circle has the minimum ratio of cir***ference to area of any two dimensional shape. I was merely suggesting that if we measure the cir***ference that we want we can estimate the total stretch based on the total degrees of bend. (at any rate 10 % error on estimating 2 nches of stretch puts us much closer than 10 % of a 14 inch cir***ference). It works for me with sliders.

I have tried various shapes, but an easy experiment is to take two identical pieces of bar stock, bend one into a "U" shape and the other into a mushroom shape where you complete the oval near the bend, then bring the tails parallel below the oval. Both represent a net 180 degrees of bend and both will show the same amount of stretch, about 1.5 times the stock width.

I would note that the measurements some farriers make with a straight rule are indeed based on an attempt to estimate an "average diameter". Most of these methods start with something like totalling measurements made toe to buttress, width and diagonal. This is basically the same as 3 times an average diam. They then subtract the heel width, a couple of times the stock width, etc. I don't use the method so I wouldn't swear that I have it totally correct, but most of the quys that I know that do use a method of this type make a lot of shoes and add (or subtract) a bit based on experience with a long foot vs a stubby or whatever shape.
Jack Evers CJF AFA#426

The best things about the good old days -- I wasn't good and I wasn't old.

The older I get, the more horses I shoe, the fewer things that I can absolutely, positively fix.
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RE:Measuring barstock 06 Feb 2006 19:46 #14

  • Mike Ferrara
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Jack, I didn't mean to imply that you were wrong but rather to add to your explaination. A good example of what I was getting at would be something like a chain link. You could calculate the stock needed for the two half circles (the ends) and add in the two straight sections. My point was that sections of differing radius (different fractions of an arc) or straight sections need to be taken into account when those sections use up significant lengths of stock.

I do understand what you're saying though and an alternative way of treating the chain link would be to take the outside measurement and subtract to compensate for the bends at either end which is, I think, how you're looking at it. That works because (pie*stock width) is the difference between the outside measurement around the 360 degrees of bend and a measurement along the centerline of the stock. I realize we're not making chain links here but I thought it was a good illustration...besides, I've seen feet like that. LOL

Looking at it algebraically as (pie*diameter at the center line of the stock) + (pie*stock width) = outside cir***ference of the 360 bend, might help illustrate to some what it is we're really compensating for. Or...draw a donut. Then put in a dotted line through the center of the cake. That dotted line is what we measure when we are cutting stock from the bar. The outside of the donut is what we get when we bend it into a circle or measure when we put a tape on a foot. Pie*width of the cake (or the stock) is the difference between the two and...pie*3/4 is a shade more than 2...so when there are no complicating factors we subtract about 2 from our measurement when using 3/4 stock.

I'm probably making this sound a lot more confusing that it really is aren't I?
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RE:Measuring barstock 07 Feb 2006 18:50 #15

  • cowboy_bc
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Hi all,

Anytime I measured a foot I always used the average formula in butlers book (avg - 2 widths less the dist between the heels for a reg shoe, 1 width for bar and no width for egg). I prefer them a bit long as I always cut the heels with a hardy. When I make shoes out of 5/8 concave 11.5 is an 0, 12.25 is a 1 and so on, shorter for 7.5 and shorter yet for 1" stock. I have wondered about a system that measures from heels around to heels because there will be an accurate constant for a stock widths or fullering in other words 12.25 of 3/4 fullered might end up being 14.25 heel to heel.

Kevin
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