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TOPIC: Keg shoe modifications

RE:Keg shoe modifications 07 Dec 2010 03:19 #166

  • cuttinshoer
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Eric Russell wrote:
Hmmmm, extra width? Why the fuller so coarse? If the vet wanted width and not a medial extension maybe you should have given what the vet wanted?

A slight extension was mentioned, it's also easier to take width off than it is to add it after the fact.



Eric Russell wrote:
But I said shoe fit not protocol


The two go hand in hand don't they. Most protocols involve shoe placement do they not.


Eric Russell wrote:
But what you say the vet wanted and what you did is completely different.


Which shoe went on the foot.

Here is part of an e-mail from two weeks ago.

Hi Justin. Just wanted to let you know Noble had his follow-up vet visit this past Tuesday. The vet was very happy with your job on his feet--and, best of all, he trotted sound! We'll be gradually returning him to work--trotted him briefly under saddle yesterday. Our fingers are crossed that he will remain sound. The vet said he needs to stay in the egg-bar shoes. I forgot to ask about the pads--but he basically said that you should continuing doing what you are doing because he liked it (kudos to you).

Eric Russell wrote:
Injuries? I thought you made the shoe for a specific injury? Now you're worried about the insurance company blaming some guy who nailed a piece of steel to a foot for injuries?

The shoe was made with the worst injury as a priority but also helped with the other two. Torn DFT and Torn impar ligament.

Eric Russell wrote:
I know my job and don't base it on how big some vet practice is. :rolleyes:

So what is our job as farriers when it comes to diagnosing lameness and shoeing prescriptions. Maybe a new thread should be started on the subject.

What I have found with the three vets I normally work with, there is usually a discussion between all parties involved and prescription is based on that discussion.
Justin Decker

"As I see it, good enough is never good enough, it's just an excuse for mediocrity. If every shoeing ain't worth your best shot, you're just going through the motions." Tom Stovall, CJF
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RE:Keg shoe modifications 07 Dec 2010 03:33 #167

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Eric Russell wrote:
Couldn't determine lameness? So how does the vet have more say than you on how to fit a shoe which no one knows why you're fitting it?

Different horse in Aluminum Eric, stay focused:p:D

Exact cause of lameness could not be determined without an MRI, no insurance on the horse so no MRI at this time.


Eric Russell wrote:
Let's forget the name drop and call the vet Joe. Does Joe have no idea why the horse is lame? Does Joe want a wider web? Does Joe want a medial extension? Can Cuttinshoer deliver?

Why I think the name is relevant, it lets everyone know the experience level of the vet involved.

Eric Russell wrote:
I can talk to vets, I don't just listen to them. Better things happen when you can talk and not just listen. ;)

I have a horse going in for a DFT tentomy on monday. When I was at the barn last week there where two other farriers there and the vet. All of us went to the stall and discussed the horse and the shoeing protocol after surgery. The vet wasn't dictating anything in fact he was the one who asked us all over to discuss the matter. That's the relationship I have with the vets that I work with, I beleive that's called professional courtesy.
Justin Decker

"As I see it, good enough is never good enough, it's just an excuse for mediocrity. If every shoeing ain't worth your best shot, you're just going through the motions." Tom Stovall, CJF
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RE:Keg shoe modifications 07 Dec 2010 03:37 #168

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I have a thing when someone says there is a "grim" prognosis then posts an email saying the horse will be back in work and the shoer says it was a torn dft and impar and a medial extension was applied.

I guess we need to get the needle and thread out and so it all back together. :rolleyes:

Cuttinshoer, we're in the farriers section not the horse owners section. We've all worked with a vet here and there.
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RE:Keg shoe modifications 07 Dec 2010 03:45 #169

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cuttinshoer wrote:

I have a horse going in for a DFT tentomy on monday. When I was at the barn last week there where two other farriers there and the vet. All of us went to the stall and discussed the horse and the shoeing protocol after surgery. The vet wasn't dictating anything in fact he was the one who asked us all over to discuss the matter. That's the relationship I have with the vets that I work with, I beleive that's called professional courtesy.

I believe it's called a waste of time! Did you record you farriers discussing how to derotate p3 after a tenotomy? That would have been pretty funny to listen to.

In my area it doesn't take 3 farriers and a vet to decide how to shoe a horse after a tenotomy.
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RE:Keg shoe modifications 07 Dec 2010 03:54 #170

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Eric Russell wrote:
I have a thing when someone says there is a "grim" prognosis then posts an email saying the horse will be back in work and the shoer says it was a torn dft and impar and a medial extension was applied.

I guess we need to get the needle and thread out and so it all back together. :rolleyes:

Cuttinshoer, we're in the farriers section not the horse owners section. We've all worked with a vet here and there.

I geuss your having trouble keeping track of things, where was a medial extension applied. A widened medial branch was applied(see picture of the shoe on the foot).

Would you like to see the MRI results for the horse so you can make a diagnosis on your own since your having trouble.
Justin Decker

"As I see it, good enough is never good enough, it's just an excuse for mediocrity. If every shoeing ain't worth your best shot, you're just going through the motions." Tom Stovall, CJF
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RE:Keg shoe modifications 07 Dec 2010 03:58 #171

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Eric Russell wrote:
I believe it's called a waste of time! Did you record you farriers discussing how to derotate p3 after a tenotomy? That would have been pretty funny to listen to.

In my area it doesn't take 3 farriers and a vet to decide how to shoe a horse after a tenotomy.

Maybe we should have just called you then. Who said p-3 needed derotated within the foot. A little clairvoyant there aren't we.
Justin Decker

"As I see it, good enough is never good enough, it's just an excuse for mediocrity. If every shoeing ain't worth your best shot, you're just going through the motions." Tom Stovall, CJF
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RE:Keg shoe modifications 07 Dec 2010 04:17 #172

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cuttinshoer wrote:
Mark, I find it easier and faster to weld the bars on in this manner rather than in between the heels. You don't have to make a precise cut to get the bar to fit and it makes nice corners.

I keep a short peice of barstock that is already cut at an angle. Grind the heels of the shoe back flat and bevel them, fit the shoe, put it and the bar in the forge until there orange, pull them out and weld them. Couple hammer blows to flatten the weld(no grinding), cool and cut the excess off with the bandsaw, which leaves that peice angled for the next one. Box the shoe and clean up the bar with the grinder, around 15 min. or less for a pair including fit.

Couple questions Justin.

Why heat the shoe and bar prior to welding? You're not forge welding the bar, are you?

Not sure I follow the process you're describing when looking at the photo result. Do you have a photo of the bar piece and shoe prior to welding? Are you grinding/hammering a "scarf" into each heel and then doing the same with the bar prior to welding?

Thanks,
Mark
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RE:Keg shoe modifications 07 Dec 2010 04:25 #173

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Mark_Gough wrote:
Couple questions Justin.

Why heat the shoe and bar prior to welding? You're not forge welding the bar, are you?

No forge welding.

Most 110 mig welders are not hot enough in the short distance to weld the thickness without leaving a tall weld to grind off. The shoe is still colored when your done welding, a few hammer blows to the weld and you don't have to grind it flat.

Same principal as when welding thick steel 3/4 or 1 inch plus. Your first pass is the most important a little heat with a torch to help the welder get started, if not it will usually crack at that location, until you can get the metal to a sufficient heat.

Mark_Gough wrote:
Not sure I follow the process you're describing when looking at the photo result. Do you have a photo of the bar piece and shoe prior to welding?

I'll see if I can get one tommorrow.

Mark_Gough wrote:
Are you grinding/hammering a "scarf" into each heel and then doing the same with the bar prior to welding?

Thanks,
Mark

I will grind a small one on the shoe when I grind the heels back or cut them off at the heel checks.
Justin Decker

"As I see it, good enough is never good enough, it's just an excuse for mediocrity. If every shoeing ain't worth your best shot, you're just going through the motions." Tom Stovall, CJF
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RE:Keg shoe modifications 07 Dec 2010 16:37 #174

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cuttinshoer wrote:
Most 110 mig welders are not hot enough in the short distance to weld the thickness without leaving a tall weld to grind off.

A 110 welder will get plenty hot enough for a shoe, especially if you weld both sides. Like Rick said chamfer the corners so the stock is only about 1/8" thick at the "point". The shoe should heat up quite sufficently, set your heat high with a slow wire feed and you can get a beautiful weld that doesn't even need to be ground down.

The real problem with 110v welders is the amps required to get one to their "rated" capacity. Most outlets in your average barn are wired with 14ga or 12ga wire at best. A 12ga wire can only support about 15a and only for about 25 feet or so before you lose amps and/or overheat the wire. A 110v welder capable of welding 3/8-1/2" steel generally draws 20a which requires a minimum of a 10ga wire for any kind of distance.

With a proper outlet capable of supplying 20a you can just turn the heat up and burn your weld down into the shoe with no grinding necessary.

I have a Lincoln 100hd (I think) that I used to carry everywhere, but lack of proper power supply has led me to leaving it at home for the most part. I'm more likely to turn on the oxy/act than the welder when I'm in the field. Of course, I also turn 99% of my barshoes.
Joey Aczon

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RE:Keg shoe modifications 07 Dec 2010 23:31 #175

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Here ya go Mark.

[ATTACH]15501[/ATTACH]
Attachments:
Justin Decker

"As I see it, good enough is never good enough, it's just an excuse for mediocrity. If every shoeing ain't worth your best shot, you're just going through the motions." Tom Stovall, CJF
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RE:Keg shoe modifications 07 Dec 2010 23:41 #176

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Joey Aczon wrote:
A 110 welder will get plenty hot enough for a shoe, especially if you weld both sides. Like Rick said chamfer the corners so the stock is only about 1/8" thick at the "point". The shoe should heat up quite sufficently, set your heat high with a slow wire feed and you can get a beautiful weld that doesn't even need to be ground down.

The real problem with 110v welders is the amps required to get one to their "rated" capacity. Most outlets in your average barn are wired with 14ga or 12ga wire at best. A 12ga wire can only support about 15a and only for about 25 feet or so before you lose amps and/or overheat the wire. A 110v welder capable of welding 3/8-1/2" steel generally draws 20a which requires a minimum of a 10ga wire for any kind of distance.

With a proper outlet capable of supplying 20a you can just turn the heat up and burn your weld down into the shoe with no grinding necessary.

I have a Lincoln 100hd (I think) that I used to carry everywhere, but lack of proper power supply has led me to leaving it at home for the most part. I'm more likely to turn on the oxy/act than the welder when I'm in the field. Of course, I also turn 99% of my barshoes.

Most 110 welders(Miller/Hobart) do not put out full amperage until about thirty seconds after the trigger is pulled, combine that with the wiring problems you described and your to cold IMO when you make the first pass.

When I set the welder up for aluminum the guy at the welding shop suggested tacking a short peice on the side of the shoe so when you reached the actual point you wanted welded you would be at optimum amperage for the thickness. 1/8 inch aluminum is welded on the highest setting with my welder so it has to be at max amps. to weld right.
Justin Decker

"As I see it, good enough is never good enough, it's just an excuse for mediocrity. If every shoeing ain't worth your best shot, you're just going through the motions." Tom Stovall, CJF
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RE:Keg shoe modifications 08 Dec 2010 11:53 #177

cuttinshoer wrote:
Mark, I find it easier and faster to weld the bars on in this manner rather than in between the heels. You don't have to make a precise cut to get the bar to fit and it makes nice corners.

I keep a short peice of barstock that is already cut at an angle. Grind the heels of the shoe back flat and bevel them, fit the shoe, put it and the bar in the forge until there orange, pull them out and weld them. Couple hammer blows to flatten the weld(no grinding), cool and cut the excess off with the bandsaw, which leaves that peice angled for the next one. Box the shoe and clean up the bar with the grinder, around 15 min. or less for a pair including fit.

[ATTACH]15496[/ATTACH]

[ATTACH]15497[/ATTACH]

Nice, I like it. Thanks.
Phil Armitage, CF
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"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:Keg shoe modifications 08 Dec 2010 11:59 #178

cuttinshoer wrote:
What about this shoe Eric, this was prescribed by a vet. The horse was wearing the 2nd barshoe posted above with a wedge pad and IM before. Would you have a problem listening to the vet on this one if you really couldn't determine the cause of the lameness.
[ATTACH]15498[/ATTACH]

By the way the vet was Scott Morrison, pretty nice guy to talk to on the phone, I have a couple horse under his care at the moment, Should I go against his recomendations because he is a vet.

Nice shoe Justin. That would be a nice idea on a PLR for a horse that also needs support.

Thanks for sharing.
Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:Keg shoe modifications 08 Dec 2010 13:35 #179

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cuttinshoer wrote:
Here ya go Mark.

[ATTACH]15501[/ATTACH]

Thanks Justin. That helps me better understand what you were describing.

Cheers,
Mark
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RE:Keg shoe modifications 08 Dec 2010 14:50 #180

Justin I think that is a great Keg shoe modification. You doing it in a different way then I have see other guys go about it. I think I like your way a lot better.

Since I'm no good with a welder I will stick with making a bar shoe. I will get in the shop tonight and see how fast I can get one made. Plane stamped.

Thinking of speed. Was anyone else at the WCB contest when the speed shoe was a straight bar six nail holes to fit a pattern. I think Todd Walker won with a time of around 3:30 seconds welded and punched and still looked like a shoe it fit in the box and you could see daylight through the drilled holes in the box. It was something to watch. Of course it was out of coke.
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