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TOPIC: Cytec

RE:Cytec 17 Jul 2006 03:10 #76

Tallisman

Everyone here knows I am all knowing and all seeing. I know the one flaw with Cytec, however I do not wish to discuss it. I will probably share this secret with Jaye when he visits in Oct. He will have to promise me not to discuss it with others or he will face the 4 lobstermen. They also know.

Take care, don't waste too much time on the interenet it is not good for your eyes. I still do not need glasses yet.
Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:Cytec 17 Jul 2006 15:30 #77

  • HoustonFarrier
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Hi HoustonFarrier (that's rather anonymous isn't it?).

Hmmmm....well, lets break that down.....

Houston - well, that'd be Houston Texas....hell, if you asked even the ******est of folks, most can tell ya Houston is Houston Texas.

Farrier - If you're having trouble with that part, well, consult the most recent version of Webster's Dictionary.

And finally, if all else fails, just look at my public profile, where you will see a plethora of information on me, and a link to my website. Short of telling you my shoe size and favorite foods, most folks know allot about me.

I'm STILL waiting for all the promised research papers. While I won't hold my breath, or even wager on when or if we'll ever see them, we can be assured of one thing.....I AM really who I say I am, and can prove it 100 times over.

Steve (That'd be my FIRST name)..and if it's worth anything to ya...Wisnieski (that's my LAST name). See my website for address, email and phone number.

PS....I wouldn't nail a Cytec on a dead horse, let alone a live one.
Obstacles are those frightful things you see when you take your eyes off your goal. - Henry Ford (1863-1947)
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RE:Cytec 18 Jul 2006 05:04 #78

  • calshoer
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Re. rim shoes, any traditional shoe whether it is an eggbar, quarter clip, NB is a rim shoe

Ahem.....NB was the original upon which cytek was blatently copied...(sloppily sand cast in cheap cast iron material from an actual NB aluminum shoe pocketed from a UK Natural Balance seminar ).
So,based on your statement ,and the fact that cytek is nothing more than a poor quality imitation, Cytek must also be a rim shoe as well. Or am I confused now?

PS I use my real name here,as does Rick Burten, Houston Farrier,(in his profile) and many other participants here, so why not you? What are you hiding?
If you do not offer up a real name it seriously harms your credibility.

And are you afraid to post pictures of your work?
I post my NB shoeing pictures here even though some other farriers here may disagreee with NB and probably also already know all about it.......why dopnt you shoe us some of your work. Come on. Double dog dare you.
Your continued anonimity creates the distinct appearance ( though probably correct) that you are no more than an internet "troll" .
Continuing to hide behind anonimity reduces your credibility to zero.
Or less.
Patty
Patty Stiller CNBF,CLS
www.hoofcareonline.com
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RE:Cytec 18 Jul 2006 08:06 #79

  • fortunato
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Hello all! To continue.... (in no particular order)

The accusation of plagiarism is a ludicrous as it is false. You may as well say a Baker's shoe is a rip off of a Cottam shoe is a rip off of a Richard Ash is a rip off of a Strommy shoe etc... etc.... or that an NB shoe is a rip off of a Fitzwygram (they call them that over here) is a rip off of any clipless shoe - or the other way round. Use any manufacturer's names, it doesn't matter at all. They are all rim shoes (and yes, I have seen NB fitted to the rim - they can be put anywhere the farrier wants) they can all be bent, shaped, they all have nail holes, they all have front/hinds and usually come in different widths/sections etc.. etc.. The irony is that the cytek shoe is the ONLY one that has tungsten pins as an integral part of the method, the ONLY one that is specifically designed to be fitted without adjustment. They are so blatantly different in concept, application and function that it is irrational and laughable to say otherwise.

Dear Rick - let me ask. Do you get your boots specially made to accommodate your over-grown toe nails? Do you walk on your toe nails perhaps? If the answer to these question is no Why on earth do you expect a horse to do so? What on earth is Dr.Rooney blathering on about? Who is he anyway? Do I care? Does he really think a horse teeters around on its finger nails? I've seen horses with 'tube' feet where this kind of thinking has gone crazy with tiny shrivelled frogs, the sole looking like the inside of St.Paul's Cathedral and inches of hoof to teeter around on. Does anyone know any other animal or bird, that walks on its toe nails? And while we're on the subject of soles if the sole is for protection why is it usual practice to strip it of its surface at shoeing?

By all means have a word with Mr.Caruthers (?) or Mr. Curtis when you next see him - I know you like to have support. It matters not. They have no influence. I am not and have never been a member of the FRC. It may surprise you but there are parts of the UK where the FRC sun don't shine and there are more farriers than you would think who are free to operate perfectly legitimately without having to pay them any money each year - like me. By the way, was I supposed to be in awe/fear and trembling? And anyhow, what 'shenanigans' are you referring to? Or it is a case of you whingeing to the big boys because you've had a hard time on the forum?

Which reminds me: Post from Matryoska ".... I wouldn't have posted over there if I had been the one who was mistreated by Rick. It was my client, who I recommended ask her question over here. Instead of focusing on the success or failures of canker treatment, Rick went off on a tangent about her not being able to keep the horse's feet dry during a flood and saying she shouln't have the horse. That was not farrier advice. Then he goes on about slaughtering the horse, etc. VERY helpful. How would the average owner on COTH like to have a farrier saying the horse may have been better off going to slaughter than standing in the wet pasture during a flood? Heck, did you see how they responded to a website talking about "liquidating" horses tht weren't what the buyer had wanted?"

[/I]

It mighn't have been COTH (my mistake) but that's hardly the attitude of a gentleman is it Rick? And then you had another rant at Matryoska! You really should change your prescription.

Re. the origins of rim shoeing. The weight differential depends on what you are comparing with what. But that is not the essential point. Rim shoeing came into being when the burgeoning capitalist economy was exploding in Britain and Europe. Hundreds of thousands of horses were being used for industry, railways, transport etc.. In this context a tiny saving multipied by x0000s all of a sudden became an enormous saving. If anyone out there has some research papers dating back to the 1700s on rim shoeing I'd be really interested to see them.

Re. My work - you'll see exactly the kind of shoeing I do on the website. My finish might be prettier than some photos on there, and not as pretty as others but the thing with cytek shoes is that there's only one way to fit them - the right way, but to be honest (and I really don't mean to sound snotty here) only another cytek farrier can judge another's work for all the reasons we've been thrashing out on this forum. I really do hope some of you guys take a look and like I had to, put aside any preconceptions and just have a quiet read of it. It's fascinating.

Best wishes all (yes, even Rick, the old buzzard!)
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RE:Cytec 18 Jul 2006 08:46 #80

  • fortunato
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My thoughts on 'credibility' for your consideration: Personally, whether I know the name and address of anyone on a discussion board is immaterial. It is what they say that makes them credible or otherwise. I am never likely to meet them in normal cir***stances so I don't need to know their personal details and don't want to. The airing of ideas is what matters. I know the names of plenty of very incredible individuals - even personal details - it has no bearing whatsoever on whether what they say is credible or not. Likewise I have had discussions with some very credible individuals and haven't a clue who they are or where they live!
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RE:Cytec 18 Jul 2006 09:31 #81

  • Jaye Perry
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fortunato-Hello all! The accusation of plagiarism is a ludicrous as it is false. You may as well say a Baker's shoe is a rip off of a Cottam shoe is a rip off of a Richard Ash is a rip off of a Strommy shoe etc... etc.... or that an NB shoe is a rip off of a Fitzwygram (they call them that over here) is a rip off of any clipless shoe - or the other way round. Use any manufacturer's names, it doesn't matter at all.
A Rip-off.
There used to be cytek.uk , now you have cytek.au. A copy,a plagiarism or just coincidence?



They are all rim shoes (and yes, I have seen NB fitted to the rim - they can be put anywhere the farrier wants) they can all be bent, shaped, they all have nail holes, they all have front/hinds and usually come in different widths/sections etc.. etc..
hummmmmmmmmm! horses are individuals and have different feet. seems plausible one should need to shape the shoes applied to the feet.



The irony is that the cytek shoe is the ONLY one that has tungsten pins as an integral part of the method, the ONLY one that is specifically designed to be fitted without adjustment. They are so blatantly different in concept, application and function that it is irrational and laughable to say otherwise
cytek is laughable.
..... What on earth is Dr.Rooney blathering on about? Who is he anyway? Do I care? Does he really think a horse teeters around on its finger nails?
Mechanics. An Equine pathologist, who has published papers extensively on the foot of a horse, wearing and surfaces in which the horse travels and competes.
Your Kool Aid needs some more water to dilute your narrow mindedness.




I've seen horses with 'tube' feet where this kind of thinking has gone crazy with tiny shrivelled frogs, the sole looking like the inside of St.Paul's Cathedral and inches of hoof to teeter around on. Does anyone know any other animal or bird, that walks on its toe nails?
cows, goats, pigs, llamas,,...etc.
And while we're on the subject of soles if the sole is for protection why is it usual practice to strip it of its surface at shoeing?
Some soles ya do , some ya don't. That individual thing again.
By all means have a word with Mr.Caruthers (?) or Mr. Curtis when you next see him - I know you like to have support. It matters not. They have no influence.
In Australia, probably not.

I am not and have never been a member of the FRC. It may surprise you but there are parts of the UK where the FRC sun don't shine and there are more farriers than you would think who are free to operate perfectly legitimately without having to pay them any money each year - like me. By the way, was I supposed to be in awe/fear and trembling?
Maybe, but a least they are not blinded by total ignorance.




........

......................
Re. the origins of rim shoeing. The weight differential depends on what you are comparing with what. But that is not the essential point. Rim shoeing came into being when the burgeoning capitalist economy was exploding in Britain and Europe. Hundreds of thousands of horses were being used for industry, railways, transport etc.. In this context a tiny saving multipied by x0000s all of a sudden became an enormous saving. If anyone out there has some research papers dating back to the 1700s on rim shoeing I'd be really interested to see them.
oh, we have to take your previous blanket statement in context now. Typical zealot, got backed into a corner and then has to explain his/her way out with a context after the fact.

Re. My work - you'll see exactly the kind of shoeing I do on the website
You paid money for that site?
. My finish might be prettier than some photos on there, and not as pretty as others but the thing with cytek shoes is that there's only one way to fit them
Of course, there is only one way to shoe a horse in your mind. It's that individual thing again that keeps popping up.(?)

- the right way, but to be honest (and I really don't mean to sound snotty here) only another cytek farrier can judge another's work for all the reasons we've been thrashing out on this forum.
An elite, elustrious and magnanimous group of cytekkers judging each others ham fist-ed applications. Most Aussies I know become clear thinkers after a keg of grog. Was the judging and the saluted "AttaBoys" before or after the pub(s).



I really do hope some of you guys take a look and like I had to, put aside any preconceptions and just have a quiet read of it. It's fascinating

We will pray for you also.
.
Best wishes all ......
"When you wish upon a star............" Jiminy Cricket.
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RE:Cytec 18 Jul 2006 09:43 #82

  • Tom Stovall CJF
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fortunato in gray, deletia

The accusation of plagiarism is a ludicrous as it is false

Plagiarism is most commonly associated with using another's words or ideas without crediting the source and is probably too good a word for Cytek's rather poor copy of Ovnicek's shoe. Cytek's blatant ripoff is much better described as being just ordinary, common, run-of-the-mill, theft.

The irony is that the cytek shoe is the ONLY one that has tungsten pins as an integral part of the method,

So what? Whatever gave anyone the rather silly idea that tungsten at a wear point was a Good Thing for every horse?

the ONLY one that is specifically designed to be fitted without adjustment.

Cytek's folly is noted. Unless you wish to argue that horses' feet do not vary in shape, it follows that no shoe can be CORRECTLY fitted to every horse without adjustment.

They are so blatantly different in concept, application and function that it is irrational and laughable to say otherwise.

The Cytek "concept" is merely a bastardized rip off of Ovnicek's shoe, without bothering with NB protocols. Nothing more, nothing less.

What on earth is Dr.Rooney blathering on about?

What would a world renowned veterinary anatomist know about a horse's foot in comparison to the knowledge (?) of an anonymous troll determined to display its apparently bottomless well of ignorance on a public forum?

Who is he anyway? Do I care? Does he really think a horse teeters around on its finger nails?

Had you not slept through comparative anatomy, you might appear much less the fool. Y'see, horses walk around on a structure that's analogous to the human middle fingernail. It's even made out of the same stuff: keratinized epithelial tissue.

And while we're on the subject of soles if the sole is for protection why is it usual practice to strip it of its surface at shoeing?

Since that the sole is not ordinarily a primary weight bearing structure, the usual practice around here is to remove only as much exfoliating sole as is necessary to avoid sole pressure.
Tom Stovall, CJF
"The only foolish question is the one left unasked."
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RE:Cytec 18 Jul 2006 11:45 #83

  • Rick Burten
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fortunato wrote:
"that's hardly the attitude of a gentleman is it Rick? You really should change your prescription.
Why? I never claimed to be a gentleman and its not germane to the discussion.
Re. My work - you'll see exactly the kind of shoeing I do on the website. My finish might be prettier than some photos on there, and not as pretty as others but the thing with cytek shoes is that there's only one way to fit them
I say your're a liar. I say you hide behind the screen name and refuse to post photos of your work because they don't exist. Besides, just 'cause you say its so, doesn't necessarily make it so. So saying the images on the cytek site are representative of your work, means squat. On the other hand, were we to take your assertions at face vlaue, and the images on the website are representative of your work, then the criminal acts depicted there should be brought to the attention of the authorities.

About one thing you are correct. There is only one way to fit the Cytek junk. And since horse's feet all vary in size and shape and since the Cytek ijunk cannot be shaped to accomodate, the way to fit the Cytek junk is always,
WRONG

Let me repeat that for you unfortunato

The one way to fit the cytek junk is always, WRONG

(and I really don't mean to sound snotty here) only another cytek farrier can judge another's work
Hoist by your own petard! Anyone among us can judge bad work and demonstrably, cytek imitation shoeing is bad work.
You cyteckies have been off planet far too long.

However, if as you assert, that "it takes one to know one", then congratulations, you have just damned with faint praise, your entire circle of fellow charlatans and fools and the product they represent and use.
I really do hope some of you guys take a look and like I had to, put aside any preconceptions and just have a quiet read of it. It's fascinating.
Hope springs eternal, but in this case, its false hope. We're on to fools like you and you have earned our well deserved contempt, disgust, derision and disrespect.

I think you Brits have a word for people like you. "DOLTS.

So now what we have before us is, an unfortunato DOLT.
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
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RE:Cytec 18 Jul 2006 11:48 #84

  • Rick Burten
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fortunato wrote:
My thoughts on 'credibility' for your consideration: Personally, whether I know the name and address of anyone on a discussion board is immaterial. It is what they say that makes them credible or otherwise.
In which case, you unfortunato dolt, you will be heartened to learn that you enjoy absolutely no credibility on these forums.
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
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RE:Cytec 18 Jul 2006 12:47 #85

  • fortunato
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Hi guys - Dear Rick - you still haven't let me in on your footwear requirements? And I'm sure you are a gentleman underneath that gruff persona. It's okay because I know traditional shoeing doesn't have any answers - that's why there are the plethora of remedial shoes and potions on the market and why so many horses are needlessly lame. Just how did the traditional shoe come into being by the way - do you really think it was the result of extensive research and the desire to provide comfortable footwear for the horse? Most of the western world does this type of shoeing because that's just the way it is and has been for a couple of hundred years - no thought - no re-assessing. A note to Jaye - have you actually (seen) trimmed a goat's/cow's/llamas foot? Obviously not otherwise you wouldn't have made that howler! Promise me you'll never trim anything with cloven feet!!! and what would possess you to strip any sole - does it need protection or not??? Yes, the 'individual' thing again (back to Rick and his toe nails). To repeat - we all have 'individual' feet - does that mean we all have to have our boots individually handmade?

I worry not that I have no 'credibility' on the forum as traditional shoeing has absolutely no credibility with me - I've done it and I've been exactly where you guys are now. There's a yawning chasm between us but it's great fun talking with you! Especially Rick when he gets all aggravated!!
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RE:Cytec 18 Jul 2006 12:58 #86

  • Rick Burten
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Unfortunato Dolt,

You mistake contempt and disdain for aggravation.

Personally, I'm glad you're here. The more you write, the more you expose the cytek darkside and the ******ity of those who promote it.

As a representative of the Cytek rubbish, you, Unfortunato Dolt, serve our purposes well. Carry on.
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
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RE:Cytec 18 Jul 2006 13:19 #87

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Dear Rick - I will just remind you that it was not me who started this thread. It was started by someone called Cowboy_bc and it was as a result of the uninformed banter that subsequently followed that Talisman came in with a perfectly legitimate question - only to be met with open hostility and bile. All this is fine, if it is informed bile which unfortunately it wasn't. I have done my best to answer your criticisms in a relatively light hearted way (though you will of course deny this as you have done all along) but I am disappointed that the discussion has now just degenerated into childish name calling and that my own questions to you have remained unanswered. It's been great fun nevertheless - if a little like banging one's head against a brick wall - but it is time for me to say goodbye for now as we seem to be heading nowhere. I am certain that you will now feel able to claim 'victory' having seen off the cytek troll and if that pleases you, who am I to deny a bad tempered old buzzard some satisfaction! Au revoir!
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RE:Cytec 18 Jul 2006 14:03 #88

  • HoustonFarrier
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my own questions to you have remained unanswered

I know exactly how you feel bubba......I'm STILL waiting for my questions to you to be answered...........as well as the pictures of YOUR work..........AND your research papers.

Steve
Obstacles are those frightful things you see when you take your eyes off your goal. - Henry Ford (1863-1947)
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RE:Cytec 18 Jul 2006 14:47 #89

  • Tom Stovall CJF
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fortunato in gray, deletia

I will just remind you that it was not me who started this thread. It was started by someone called Cowboy_bc

Folks come and go as they will, it's the nature of this forum.

and it was as a result of the uninformed banter that subsequently followed that Talisman came in with a perfectly legitimate question - only to be met with open hostility and bile.

In reality, your lead singer was met with logic and reason, concepts apparently alien to the Cytek mentality.

All this is fine, if it is informed bile which unfortunately it wasn't.

While we're gratified that one such as yourself feels it's "fine", there was no "bile", informed or otherwise. As I recall, inability to shape, big nail holes, and poor biomechanical design were all cited as being Cytek's fatal flaws, with inability to shape being first by many.

I have done my best to answer your criticisms in a relatively light hearted way (though you will of course deny this as you have done all along) but I am disappointed that the discussion has now just degenerated into childish name calling and that my own questions to you have remained unanswered.

You have failed to respond cogently to any of the criticism levied by this forum; instead, you have attempted to substitute the Cytek mantra for science and appear agitated that anyone would have the temerity to point out the folly of your attempting to substitute fluff for stuff.

It's been great fun nevertheless - if a little like banging one's head against a brick wall - but it is time for me to say goodbye for now as we seem to be heading nowhere.

Let us know when Cytek shod horses start winning G-1 races, stadium jumping, puissances, point-to-points, and similar stuff - meanwhile, you might consider that traditionally shod horses win this sort of stuff every day, a fact that suggests Cytek is merely a joke your handlers are attempting to play on the intellectually unwary.

I am certain that you will now feel able to claim 'victory' having seen off the cytek troll and if that pleases you, who am I to deny a bad tempered old buzzard some satisfaction! Au revoir!

If you think leaving with a smile on your face will keep folks from noticing that your intellecual tail is tucked firmly between your legs, you've got another think coming.

Mind the doorknob!
Tom Stovall, CJF
"The only foolish question is the one left unasked."
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RE:Cytec 18 Jul 2006 22:11 #90

  • calshoer
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The irony is that the cytek shoe is the ONLY one that has tungsten pins as an integral part of the method, the ONLY one that is specifically designed to be fitted without adjustment. They are so blatantly different in concept, application and function that it is irrational and laughable to say otherwise.
Yep..different for sure. Let's see......tungsten pins placed there only because the cheap hard cast iron slips on paved surfaces without them. Tungsten pins that compromise the breakover of the toe because they do not allow the toe of thr shoe to wear into the place the foot needs to break over optimally as the foot grows out.
And the stress the horses legs as a result of the added traction. Nasty little pins.
And cytek is the the only shoe that is unshapeable ONLY because it is cast iron ,not malleable iron or aluminum. And as a result are also not shock absorbing and will likely transmit more vibration to the horses foot and legs more than a softer metal would.
You're SO gullible (or misinformed, or just lack common sense ) if you think those cytek shoe features are GOOD things.
Patty
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