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TOPIC: Cytec

RE:Cytec 16 Jun 2006 10:58 #46

  • Tallisman
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Ty, I am not sure I understand your question.
You say that my one size fits all attitude is just like the ones I criticize

I do not have a one size fits all attitude to shoeing and am not sure where you got that from. I am very open to listening and hearing anything that may help understand the requirements of horses, so that we can improve on what we are doing now, as I still don't think we have it right yet.

Please expand on your question and I will try to answer. Unfortunately I cannot at this time go into my research other than to say that it will be released as soon as it is finished and will be available to any farrier, horse owner etc who is interested. As it is not quite finished it would not be fair to expand any further than that.
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RE:Cytec 16 Jun 2006 12:16 #47

  • Tom Stovall CJF
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Tallisman in gray

I asked a question, wondering if anyone else has found what I have with relation to the cytek system of farriery.

Evidently none of us are as intellectually gifted as yourself. On the other hand, the fact that a whole bunch of folks happened to agree on the fundamental flaws of the Cytek shoe/cult might suggest that the flaw you claim to have found is not the fundamental flaw.

I asked an honest and open question originally, with no agenda, other than to see if people (experienced farriers on this board) judge the positive and negative effects of this form of farriery using any form of scientific reasoning at all. Obviously the answer is NO!

It's my considered opinion that you wouldn't know "scientific reasoning" if it jumped up and bit you on the nalgas. According to the scientific method, one observes a phenomenon, forms a hypothesis (SWAG) in an attempt to explain it, then uses experiement and empiricism to confirm or disprove the hypothesis. If/when the hypothesis is confirmed, one usually publishes the whole schlimele in a discipline-specific journal for peer review.

The deleterious effects of poorly fitted shoes, overly invasive nails, retarded turnover, etc., have been delineated and tested ad nauseum (see any veterinary text for conformation); yet, you appear unaware of this vast body of evidence which confirms every one of the answers you received on both a pragmatic and scientific basis. One can only wonder why.

Then after all the **** and ridicule you throw at me for asking this question, you want me to enlighten you all to the fundamental flaws of the cytek shoeing system and maybe shoeing in general, HA!!

Have you thought about becoming a preacher/priest/mulla/rabbi/shaman? Every one of those folks operate on the principle that one can transmorgrify belief into knowledge if only one starts early enough and repeats the mantra often enough. As I see it, you're just another evangelical proselyte knocking at this forum's door at the supper hour, attempting to substitute belief for knowledge, and wondering why folks won't buy into your fantasies.

Trust me, you have not scared me off or upset me, I just thought it would not hurt for everyone to act human when having a discussion. And I must commend a few of you for judging my skills under a horse, I am not sure how you did that from the questions I asked, but it is an impressive skill to have.

Knowledge and motor skills make the farrier and one seldom encounters one without the other. You haven't demonstrated much of the former, a fact that suggests you might be deficient in the latter.

Lack of scientific reasoning goes right through the industry. How do we know whether a shoe has a positive or negative effect on the horse when we apply it?

Archimedes did the intellectual heavy lifting between 300 and 200 BC. Perhaps the news hasn't rached you as yet.

Example: I had a meeting with the Victorian Racing Commission a few weeks ago and discussed this very point. How do they test new shoes that come onto the market before they are accepted as suitable for racing.

I dunno how things work Down Under, but here in the States, the rules of racing of racing in every parimutuel jurisdiction require every starter to be shod in "race plates" (or similar wording) and any deviation from the usual protocols, including leaving the horse barefooted, require stewards' permission and publication in the official program.

And you are right whoever said that there are fantastic farriers on here and 1000yrs of ac***ulative experience, the very reason I came her to pose my question in the first place. Ok, you did disappoint me a little as i was hoping for a more educated answer, but, what you are so good at is based on a sound knowledge of the information that is already out there and the ability to shape a shoe to the foot of a horse. And I am sure there are few better! But, I am talking about something a little different. Who says we have already found all of the answers. And if we haven't, does that mean that the research till this point may be wrong? If this is so, maybe some of what we have learnt could be wrong too. Maybe, maybe not, but the answers will not lie in the ability to nail on a shoe, it will be in science based research and understanding.

You appear to be saying that after one discovers a FATAL flaw in something, one should keep on searching to see if other fatal flaws exist: Why? If one knows that horses' feet come in a variety of shapes and Cytek shoes can't be shaped, there appears to be little point in seeking further flaws. The operative word is "fatal."

I would be interested to hear how the US Racing Commission assess shoes suitable for racing before approval is given.

In the USA, the state racing commissions govern racing, each recognizes the other, and the rules of racing vary slightly from one jurisdiction to another.

Does anyone know this? And, as for me coming on here trying to prove myself better than you all, well I was asking the questions, it was you who were yelling the answers and telling me I don't know anything!!

You asked, we answered; you didn't get the answer you hoped for and exposed the depth of your knowledge by attempting to castigate this forum on the basis of your not getting the answer you sought, despite the fact that every answer you received was both anatomically and biomechanically defensible. On the other hand, you made quite an impression, but perhaps not the one you desired.

I don't think I am better or worse than anyone else, maybe I just look at things a little differently and maybe research things before I open my mouth, unlike so many others. Maybe I don't see things in just black and white as many of you seem to. There is a lot of grey in my vision of farriery, and that means there is much still to learn. Remember, the best question to ask is the one you already know the answer to!!

This may come as a shock to one as educated as yourself, but physical law is immutable. Should you encounter a bit of intellectual free time, you might ponder the significance of that statement as it applies to Cytek shoes.

I don't think I will be getting much of a pay day for pointing out a fundamental flaw in the Cytek shoeing system. I don't think many people really care about them anymore.

Right string, wrong yo-yo.

What I will say is that our research (conducted over the last 4 years) has shown they are one of a few shoes that are not suitable for any horse, at any time, under any conditions. And that has nothing to do with nail holes, the ability to shape the shoe or vibration!

Damn! It took you and yours four years of research to discover what most two week shoeing school dropouts would have noticed at first glance? Dare I suggest y'all are a mite slow on the uptake? :)
Tom Stovall, CJF
"The only foolish question is the one left unasked."
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RE:Cytec 16 Jun 2006 13:01 #48

  • Greg Thomas
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There is a whole bunch of stuff that "I don't understand all I know about it". Which ain't as bad as "I don't know or understand about it".

I had 3 sisters(one has passed) and no brothers. I have 4 daughters and no sons. I now have 1 granddaughter and no grandsons. When it comes to female reasoning here is a lot that I pretty much know for sure but a tremendous amount that don't really understand.

I can nail shoes on horses and seldom get results I didn't expect or cannot deal with. Having thorough, proven, scientific knowledge of every conceivable influence(a few imagined influences mentioned on here from time to time remain inconceivable to me-and will probably remain so) on a horses' hoof is far beyond my intellectual capabilities. Even if I was smart enough and fairly quick learner to get thorough, proven beyond doubt, knowledge of everything then I would be about 195 years old before I ever actually picked up a horses' foot.

Whatever your brilliant breakthrough is on shoeing-I doubt if it will change much on the way I think when I shoe horses.

Some live and learn-others just live. I may be blissful but I'm riding a sound horse.

Greg
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RE:Cytec 16 Jun 2006 13:05 #49

  • Tallisman
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Tom, as usual I really have no idea what you are talking about. I am not even sure if you have answered anything in your post.
Obviously I am not up to your level of intellect as nothing you said makes much sense to me. Or is it that you feel it necessary to answer in a way that makes you feel superior, I think so. I will feed your giant ego and say you are the greatest. That should get you through another week.

Have a great day.
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RE:Cytec 16 Jun 2006 13:14 #50

  • Tallisman
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Greg,

I feel sorry for your way of thinking. How, or more so, why would you want to make a judgement on something prior to knowing and understanding what it is!!! This to me is one of the reasons that the farrier industry is so far behind the times in so many areas. Because so many farriers out there are not interested in learning anything new. I am first to agree that there is a lot of information out there that is jubious at best. But I also feel there is a lot of information out there, and maybe even more that could make a huge difference to the horses welfare and his way of going.
To close your eyes to this, or more importantly close your mind to this can only hinder your abilities as a farrier and your ability to do the best job for each individual horse. Isn't that what we shoe horses for??
I would hope the answer to that is yes!!

have a great day :)
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RE:Cytec 16 Jun 2006 13:19 #51

  • Tallisman
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Tom, I noticed your comments on 'retarded turnover', can you explain this term to me. In simple terms if possible as i want to understand what you are saying. We may just have a difference in terminology but i have not heard that term before.
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RE:Cytec 16 Jun 2006 13:57 #52

  • Greg Thomas
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Tallisman wrote:
Greg,

I feel sorry for your way of thinking. How, or more so, why would you want to make a judgement on something prior to knowing and understanding what it is!!!


To close your eyes to this, or more importantly close your mind to this can only hinder your abilities as a farrier and your ability to do the best job for each individual horse. Isn't that what we shoe horses for??
I would hope the answer to that is yes!!
:)

I ate breakfast this morning even though I don't fully understand all the biological aspects of food, digestion, nutrients, fiber, carcinogenics, or even poop. I would have already starved if I had to wait until I knew it all(or had you explain it to me in a way I fully comprehend it).

I've got a little experience to back up my understandings but will listen intently to most arguments to improve my shoeing.

Don't look like I'm gonna get your great wisdom and the horses ain't gonna quit growing hoof so I gotta do something.

My ability to do the best job for each horse will be judged in the show ring tomorrow night. I hope it is as good as it was last weekend. The proof is in the pudding.

How many shoes have you personally hung on horses? Are you a recent MBA(Masters of Business Administration) graduate? You sure do sound like one.

Greg
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RE:Cytec 16 Jun 2006 14:10 #53

All I meant by a one size fits all attitude is that you made alot of accusations and stereotyping about the people on the forum. I am here to learn. I was suprised when you said the study hadn't been released yet (if that is what you meant) and you expected me or others to know its findings. Keep me enlighten as to where I can find this information once it has been released.

Ty
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RE:Cytec 16 Jun 2006 14:15 #54

  • HoustonFarrier
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I don't know.....this guy sounds allot like that knuckle-head that had the "magic" cure for Navicular. He was gonna write his paper...we're still waiting for that one too. Well, I'm not holding my breath........I've got horses to shoe !

Steve
Obstacles are those frightful things you see when you take your eyes off your goal. - Henry Ford (1863-1947)
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RE:Cytec 16 Jun 2006 19:24 #55

  • Tom Stovall CJF
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Tallisman in gray, two posts combined for brevity, deletia

Tom, I noticed your comments on 'retarded turnover', can you explain this term to me. In simple terms if possible as i want to understand what you are saying. We may just have a difference in terminology but i have not heard that term before.

Asked and answered. Please see the last paragraph of Patty Stiller's post (#24) in this thread.

Tom, as usual I really have no idea what you are talking about. I am not even sure if you have answered anything in your post.

Do you feel your ongoing comprehension crisis is somehow my fault?

Obviously I am not up to your level of intellect as nothing you said makes much sense to me.

If the polysyllabic stuff is giving your trouble, I can ****** my stuff down even further.

Or is it that you feel it necessary to answer in a way that makes you feel superior, I think so.

If my saying that horses' feet are shaped differently, Cytek shoes can't be shaped, and that's a FATAL flaw has somehow caused you to feel intellectually inferior, you have my sincere condolences.

I will feed your giant ego and say you are the greatest.

While I appreciate your attempt, the size of my ego can be affected only by my peers - one of whom, you ain't. :)
Tom Stovall, CJF
"The only foolish question is the one left unasked."
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RE:Cytec 17 Jun 2006 03:31 #56

  • SlowShoe
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Man this guy has some free time eh?
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RE:Cytec 13 Jul 2006 14:43 #57

  • fortunato
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I couldn't resist taking a little look at how you guys are doing on the Cytek thread. My word! What a cat fight! Just because Talisman dared to ask a sensible question! You sound just like poor old Giles Holtom over here in the UK - never learnt anything more the minute he finished his apprenticeship and full of hate for anyone who's trying to! I just pity the horses you all shoe!!!
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RE:Cytec 13 Jul 2006 14:53 #58

  • HoustonFarrier
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Unfortunately I cannot at this time go into my research other than to say that it will be released as soon as it is finished and will be available to any farrier, horse owner etc who is interested. As it is not quite finished it would not be fair to expand any further than that.

We're STILL waiting for the research to be published........and waiting.....and waiting.......(wonder what HIS definition of "soon" is) ????
Obstacles are those frightful things you see when you take your eyes off your goal. - Henry Ford (1863-1947)
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RE:Cytec 14 Jul 2006 06:35 #59

  • SlowShoe
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fortunato wrote:
I couldn't resist taking a little look at how you guys are doing on the Cytek thread. My word! What a cat fight! Just because Talisman dared to ask a sensible question! You sound just like poor old Giles Holtom over here in the UK - never learnt anything more the minute he finished his apprenticeship and full of hate for anyone who's trying to! I just pity the horses you all shoe!!!

..........?
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RE:Cytec 14 Jul 2006 10:45 #60

  • Rick Burten
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Dear, dear, dear, fortunato

It does help when one has the congative resources to understand the written word. Even better if that someone can do it under the concept of 'content in context'.

Like the navicular troll, the cytec troll, aka: tallisman, failed to realize/understand that coming among us in such a manner as was done is going to, after a time, produce the cutting open and blood letting of their person that has been witnessed. You might say that its a "blood sport" around these parts, and as you may have noticed, there are some very able players.

Thus far fortunato, fortune has, on these forums, smiled on you. Are you sure you want to keep playing? Or, perhaps since we have 'checked' to you, you should fold this hand of cards.

Your call.
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
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