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TOPIC: Cytec

RE:Cytec 13 Jun 2006 14:56 #31

Rick you just can't help some people. As you know this is another ****** fad that Sadly will hurt a lot of horses that this shoe is applied to. all we can do is advise and not apply. Don’t let you blood pressure get up over stuipidy.
In life your work is your signature, try to sign with elegance and grace.
You do not have to be the best just care the most.
John Muldoon
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RE:Cytec 14 Jun 2006 00:12 #32

  • Tallisman
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Hi Rick,

did anyone ever tell you that aggression is in most cases a sign of ignorance. If you could answer using scientific reasoning you would just say that and not all of the stuff you personally attacked me with. I feel strongly that it is you that is insecure with your knowledge and abilities, not me. You don't know me and you have never seen me shoe a horse, so why would you make such childish personal attacks on someone who is chasing information, not just opinion, and asking people to justify it using some sort of scientific basis.
Were would we be if the world did not try to prove things using scientific reasoning to determine if they were right or wrong and we just said, 'it is right or wrong because rick said so'! We would be still in the dark ages, were much of farriery is today.

I watched a horse shod using cytek shoes today for the first time ever, an off the track T/B. The guy used a size 5 shoe (think that is 5") on the front foot and he used an E5 nail. The shoe was a pretty good fit and he explained there were 12 sizes of shoe from 4" to 61/2" moving up in 1/4" increments.
The only part of the shoeing that I would have changed as far as the shape of the foot was the heels were a little wider than I would have liked, especially on one side. I see more shoeings too tight in the heels than too much width though, so I suppose this was not such a bad thing.
What he said about flaring and undershoeing the flare made sense and is what I would do with a normal shoe anyway. I see so many farriers shape shoes to flares or turn heels to suit a contracted heel which only distorts the hoof more in most cases, I really can see how this shoe could help some farriers. I am not conviced the breakover is in the right place but I don't know enough to really comment on that yet, but if that is where the NB shoe is placed then it must be ok as you all seem pretty positive about them. I am not sure about the material, very different than any other shoe I have felt, feels a bit brittle.

I can tell you that this farrier did nice work and was very informative and the horse moved off just fine. He has 90% of his horses on cytek shoes and has had very little trouble with them. He said the hoof capsules have improved immensly but has had a few gait problems (shortening of stride and traction). He admitted that he has shod horses for 23yrs and felt there had to be a better way than the traditional methods he was using and although cytek may not be perfect he prefers it to what he used to do. He has been using cytek for 5 years and his clients go about 8 weeks between shoeings, which initially reduced his income, but he has picked up more clients now as many farriers refuse to use the shoes.
He was forced to do training days before he was allowed to get access to the shoes and he has since been to other training days just to check his work and application and the last few training days were free.
I would challenge some of the things he said, as he did not convince me they were correct, but overall I would have to say I am not against the shoeing style yet. He laughed when I told him about what people were saying and what I had heard, he just said he is getting good results and it is the horse that he worries about.
I sought out a cytek farrier to ask him directly about his product because no person on here gave me the answers I was looking for. This guy gave me the time and was nice enough to answer as many of my questions as he could about cytek and why he uses the product, just wish he did not start so early in the morning, yaaawwwnnn.
Maybe people would listen to others on here if they did not get so aggressive. When you get aggressive it gives the opinion that you are scared and do not have any more information regarding something, and this is definitely what Rick seems to be doing. Scare off anyone who doesn't just accept the answers on this board as gospel and you wont have to show anyone you don't really know!!

Have a great day :)
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RE:Cytec 14 Jun 2006 02:43 #33

  • Rick Burten
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Tallisman wrote:
Hi Rick,
did anyone ever tell you that aggression is in most cases a sign of ignorance.
As you noted, "in most cases". Unless you have evidence to the contrary, demonstrably, I'm one of the ones thats in the 'exception to that observation' group.
If you could answer using scientific reasoning you would just say that and not all of the stuff you personally attacked me with.
Got your undies all wadded up and your feelings hurt, did you? You were given answers, ad naseum. time to learn to read for content in context.
I feel strongly that it is you that is insecure with your knowledge and abilities, not me.
Try channeling your strong feelings into something positive. Like cognitive brain function.
You don't know me and you have never seen me shoe a horse, so why would you make such childish personal attacks on someone who is chasing information, not just opinion, and asking people to justify it using some sort of scientific basis.
You were given measured, reasoned responses. You chose to ignore them and to contine to beat your drum. By the way, a dog chases its tail, people SEEK information.
Were would we be if the world did not try to prove things using scientific reasoning to determine if they were right or wrong and we just said, 'it is right or wrong because rick said so'! We would be still in the dark ages, were much of farriery is today.
Cytek isn't right or wrong either because of or inspite of me. Cytek is wrong for all the reasons that were enumerated for you. And if you will remember, I suggested you perform some field tests of your own(or did you miss that reply?) and draw your own conclusions.
Would it somehow have satisfied you if the Surgeon General of the United States came on the forums and stated that "Cytek shoes are bad for the horse"? Whether you agreed or not, it wouldn't change a thing. Cytek shoes are demonstrably bad for the horse.
I watched a horse shod using cytek shoes today for the first time ever
How honored you must feel.
The shoe was a pretty good fit
"pretty good". Is that like being a little bit pregnant?
and he explained there were 12 sizes of shoe from 4" to 61/2" moving up in 1/4" increments.
Be still my heart! Mediocrity(or perhaps even less) now comes in twelve sizes! Did this shaman also explain how you fit one of these unshapeable hunks of iron to a foot that doesn't fit the shoe's pre-cast pattern? Or is that a lesson for another day?
The only part of the shoeing that I would have changed as far as the shape of the foot was the heels were a little wider than I would have liked, especially on one side.
So this horse has a "U" shaped foot? And, not correctly fitted is still not correctly fitted, even if it is acceptable to you.
I see more shoeings too tight in the heels
In your own practice perhaps? Regardless, surely you don't hold me accountable for the shortcomings and inadequacies of those of your acquaintance do you?
What he said about flaring and undershoeing the flare made sense and is what I would do with a normal shoe anyway. I see so many farriers shape shoes to flares or turn heels to suit a contracted heel which only distorts the hoof more in most cases,
If your concept of fitting a shoe to a foot dovetails with the shape of the Cytek shoe, then of course what was said would make sense to you.
I really can see how this shoe could help some farriers.
The terminally incompetent, perhaps?
I am not conviced the breakover is in the right place but I don't know enough to really comment on that yet, but if that is where the NB shoe is placed then it must be ok as you all seem pretty positive about them.
Comparing a NB shoe to the Cytek shoe other than to say that the Cytek shoe is a badly made rip-off of the NB shoe pattern, is akin to comparing Macintosh Apples to road apples. And while many will happily chomp down on a Macintosh Apple, I know of no one of the human species who willingly or routinely chomps down on a road apple
I am not sure about the material, very different than any other shoe I have felt, feels a bit brittle.
Quite an astute observation. Perhaps you missed the lesson here on the thread, where it was explained why this is so? Think hard and let the words "cast iron" be your guide. Or is that not scientific enough for you(would 'cast Fe' aussage your delicate sensibilities?)?
I can tell you that this farrier did nice work and was very informative and the horse moved off just fine.
"When you can't blind them with brilliance, baffle them with BS" seems an appropriate response here. "moved off just fine" as compared to what?
He has 90% of his horses on cytek shoes and has had very little trouble with them.
Even a blind hog is able to find the occasional acorn. How about the other 10%? and what does it mean when you say, "he has had very little trouble with them?
He said the hoof capsules have improved immensly but has had a few gait problems (shortening of stride and traction).
Well there you go! Testimony right from the farrier's mouth about the efficacy and worth of the product he is installing. Makes me wonder why he would continue to want to provide less than optimum service and product to his clients.
He admitted that he has shod horses for 23yrs and felt there had to be a better way than the traditional methods he was using and although cytek may not be perfect he prefers it to what he used to do.
Did he perchance explain to you what the traditional methods he formerly used were? Did he tell you why they didn't work? Did you perhaps consider that he may not have really known what he was doing, and if he had applied the proper trim and correctly fitted the shoes in the first place, he would not be such a fan of such an inferior product?
He has been using cytek for 5 years and his clients go about 8 weeks between shoeings, which initially reduced his income, but he has picked up more clients now as many farriers refuse to use the shoes.
Have you considered WHY so many farriers refust to use the shoes?
He was forced to do training days before he was allowed to get access to the shoes and he has since been to other training days just to check his work and application and the last few training days were free.
The mind boggles at the inferences here.
I would challenge some of the things he said, as he did not convince me they were correct, but overall I would have to say I am not against the shoeing style yet.
Ever wonder about why someone has to pay to learn to use the Cytek shoes, yet can learn the NBS principles by reading , downloading and printing the FREE tutorial about the NB trimming and shoeing protocols? And can purchase the videos for a fraction of the cost of attending the cytek mind meld program. And no one is forced to do this in the NBS world. Makes me wonder even more about Cytek. How 'bout you?
He laughed when I told him about what people were saying and what I had heard, he just said he is getting good results and it is the horse that he worries about.
Demonstrably he worries very little.
I sought out a cytek farrier to ask him directly about his product because no person on here gave me the answers I was looking for.
ROTFLMAO!!! What did you expect him to tell you about his product? Tha it is unshapeable, has lousy nail holes, causes increased vibrations, is heavy and accurately fits almost no foot found on S. Equus(there are always exceptions to the rule, which is why I said 'almost')?
This guy gave me the time and was nice enough to answer as many of my questions as he could about cytek and why he uses the product, just wish he did not start so early in the morning, yaaawwwnnn.
Much the same courtesy as was extended, at least at first, here on the forums. So what's your beef( or broccoli if you are a vegan)?
Maybe people would listen to others on here if they did not get so aggressive.
You were accorded fair and honest answers here. Your continued trollishness(sic) has brought to the fore my oft stated inability to suffer fools at all(which by the way, sometimes includes me).
When you get aggressive it gives the opinion that you are scared and do not have any more information regarding something, and this is definitely what Rick seems to be doing.
Did you perhaps eat an extra portion of Quiche today? And while there are some things that do indeed scare me, Cytek shoes are not on that list. Doofi who apply them however, are.
Scare off anyone who doesn't just accept the answers on this board as gospel and you wont have to show anyone you don't really know!!
What is it that you contend I or anyone else who has taken the time to reply to you ,don't know? Personally, I couldn't care less if you or anyone else likes or agrees with my opinions, advise, answers, whatever. If you are so easily scared, then perhaps you need to be in a different profession. Fluffing up pillows comes to mind.
Have a great day :)
You do the same.
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
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RE:Cytec 14 Jun 2006 03:00 #34

  • SlowShoe
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Tallisman,
Your riding this subject like an agent of Cytec. Put plain and simple, I'm sure this shoe will work on some horses just fine.. But why use it when their are superior shoes on the market? THis shoe is a cast pattern that can not be shaped! You dont need rocket science to see that when you cant shape a shoe to fit a foot its not going to work most of the time... Are you sure you shoe horses? Because any self respecting farrier would realize that you need to shape shoes...

-josh
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RE:Cytec 14 Jun 2006 03:18 #35

  • Derin Foor
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will someone please wake me when the Cytek commercial is over :rolleyes:

Derin
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RE:Cytec 14 Jun 2006 12:09 #36

  • Tom Stovall CJF
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Tallisman in gray, deletia

I watched a horse shod using cytek shoes today for the first time ever, an off the track T/B. The guy used a size 5 shoe (think that is 5") on the front foot and he used an E5 nail. The shoe was a pretty good fit and he explained there were 12 sizes of shoe from 4" to 61/2" moving up in 1/4" increments.

Should you ever lose your enthusiasm for mediocrity, you may come to realize that the term "pretty good" dos not apply to fitting horseshoes.

I sought out a cytek farrier to ask him directly about his product because no person on here gave me the answers I was looking for.

Nobody gave you what you were looking for, but everyone who answered your queries cited chapter and verse relative to Cytek's deficiencies.

This guy gave me the time and was nice enough to answer as many of my questions as he could about cytek and why he uses the product

So what? In the Kingdom of the Doofi, the doofus is king.

Maybe people would listen to others on here if they did not get so aggressive.

The quality of information is not related to its presentation. If you want sweetness and light, you've come to the wrong place; if you want unfettered information, there is no better source than this.

When you get aggressive it gives the opinion that you are scared and do not have any more information regarding something, and this is definitely what Rick seems to be doing.

Poor baby! Did mean ol' Uncle Wick's make it think and hurt its wittle feelin's?

Scare off anyone who doesn't just accept the answers on this board as gospel and you wont have to show anyone you don't really know!!

Lemme tally up: You came into our midst attempting to extoll the virtues of an inferior product by perhaps inadvertently pointing out its deficiencies, then got your teat caught in a wringer because several folks on this forum have had the temerity to point out that any shoe that can't be fitted to a horse's foot is worthless.

Please ask your handlers at Cytek to send us better quality trolls, you're too
easy to be much fun. :)
Tom Stovall, CJF
"The only foolish question is the one left unasked."
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RE:Cytec 14 Jun 2006 14:59 #37

  • Tallisman
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You guys are just too funny. I am in no way a cytek person and do not and definitely will not use their product.
I asked a few questions and did not get an answer I was hoping for, this is due to the fact that you don't know the answer! I even baited you with half of the answer. Maybe if you left your ego's behind before you came on here sprouting about how much you all think you know, and how great you all are, you may just learn something.
There is a very basic and fundamental flaw with the cytek shoeing system, based totally on science and physics, and nobody else seems to know what it is, not even cytek.
You all think you are so great but you don't know either.
What a joke you all are!!!
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RE:Cytec 14 Jun 2006 15:12 #38

Enlighten us then.

Ty
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RE:Cytec 14 Jun 2006 16:07 #39

  • Rick Burten
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Tallisman wrote:
You guys are just too funny.
Thanks for noticing! We love doing stand-up! Especially when the target is so well defined.
I am in no way a cytek person and do not and definitely will not use their product.
Well, now we know something of what you are not. The question is, what are you?
I asked a few questions and did not get an answer I was hoping for,
Pobrecito, is this the first time in your life you didn't get what you hoped for or is this just another in a long list of personal and professional disapointments? Is that why you're so off put? Tell Uncle Wickie what you want to hear and he'll whisper and coo the soothing and self-serving words you so deperately long to hear.
this is due to the fact that you don't know the answer!
ROTFLMAO!! Have you considered auditioning for a spot on Blue Collar Comedy?
I even baited you with half of the answer.
Is that perhaps because you have only half a brain? Or is my estimate too high by 80%?
Maybe if you left your ego's behind before you came on here sprouting about how much you all think you know, and how great you all are, you may just learn something.
1. Demonstrably, we know what we know.
2. Demonstrably, we have egos(some larger than others :D ).
3. Demonstrably, we have, over the years, learned much from one another.
4. Demonstrably, we are all great!
5. Demonstrably, you have nothing to teach and much to learn.
There is a very basic and fundamental flaw with the cytek shoeing system, based totally on science and physics, and nobody else seems to know what it is, not even cytek.
But you, in you omniscient luminescense and advanced knowledge of science and physics have discovered what that alleged fundamental flaw(other than the obvious ones already noted)is, but have no interest in sharing that information with anyone else, right? Or is it that you are looking for a payday? If so, you've come begging on the wrong street.
You all think you are so great but you don't know either.
No one here ever said or intim-a-ted that they know everything about everything. In case you missed it, that's why we're all here. Had you offerd anything of substance you would have been welcomed and we might all have slaked our thirst at the fountain of your knowledge. Unfortunately, your fountain is dry and dusty and the pump has gone to rust.
What a joke you all are!!!
In this instance, the joke is on you. :)
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
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RE:Cytec 14 Jun 2006 16:32 #40

  • HoustonFarrier
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I even baited you with half of the answer

As I suspected....a troll.....an anonymous schmuck, coming to a public forum trying to make "fools" of a group of men and women with probably 1000 years (collectively) of horseshoeing experience, in the (vain) hopes of proving yourself superior to the masses. You must be a poor, lonely sap....or a BUA'r in disguise. We've caught others coming here to troll before.....
You all think you are so great but you don't know either.

Hard to answer to provide an answer when you don't know the question. You may as well have asked us to pick a number between 1 and 1 million.......( I pick.....42!)
There is a very basic and fundamental flaw with the cytek shoeing system, based totally on science and physics, and nobody else seems to know what it is, not even cytek.

If you were TRULY honest and honorable in your intentions, you would have stated your "knowledge" that you infer we are all so lacking in, and in doing so, would have educated the masses and provided care and comfort for any future horses that may be so unlucky as to have these nailed on to their feet. But, alas, education and the horses health ARE NOT first and foremost in your mind....you are here only to make YOURSELF superior to a collective group of people who have forgotton more about farriery in the time it has taken them to read this, than you will EVER dream of knowing. You *may* think you have pulled one over on this group.....but, I can tell you, it is not true.

The lonliest fool is the one staring back at you from the mirror........
Obstacles are those frightful things you see when you take your eyes off your goal. - Henry Ford (1863-1947)
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RE:Cytec 14 Jun 2006 16:42 #41

  • Rick Burten
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HoustonFarrier wrote:
As I suspected....a troll.....an anonymous schmuck, coming to a public forum trying to make "fools" of a group of men and women
Uh-Oh, now you've gone and done it. You've insulted all schmucks by affiliating them with 'anonymous posting as Tallisman'.

All I can say is you better watch your back...... :D
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
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RE:Cytec 14 Jun 2006 16:56 #42

  • T.L. Buck
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Rick Burten wrote:
Uh-Oh, now you've gone and done it. You've insulted all schmucks by affiliating them with 'anonymous posting as Tallisman'.

All I can say is you better watch your back...... :D

Rick it is about time that you put a disclaimer in your signature. I do believe it is a little past due and I hope no one tries to go back and get you for back postings.(pre-disclaimer). :D :D
~ Buck - Farrier


Main Entry: 1ex·pert .. Pronunciation: 'ek-"sp&rt, ik-'
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French & Latin; Anglo-French, from Latin expertus, from past participle of experiri
1: eX ... is an unknown factor.
2:...
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RE:Cytec 14 Jun 2006 17:08 #43

  • HoustonFarrier
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Uh-Oh, now you've gone and done it. You've insulted all schmucks by affiliating them with 'anonymous posting as Tallisman'

To all the 'schmucks'....'putz(es)'......et al.....my humblest apologies :D
LOL


Steve
Obstacles are those frightful things you see when you take your eyes off your goal. - Henry Ford (1863-1947)
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RE:Cytec 16 Jun 2006 06:41 #44

  • Tallisman
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I asked a question, wondering if anyone else has found what I have with relation to the cytek system of farriery. I asked an honest and open question originally, with no agenda, other than to see if people (experienced farriers on this board) judge the positive and negative effects of this form of farriery using any form of scientific reasoning at all. Obviously the answer is NO!
Then after all the **** and ridicule you throw at me for asking this question, you want me to enlighten you all to the fundamental flaws of the cytek shoeing system and maybe shoeing in general, HA!!
Trust me, you have not scared me off or upset me, I just thought it would not hurt for everyone to act human when having a discussion. And I must commend a few of you for judging my skills under a horse, I am not sure how you did that from the questions I asked, but it is an impressive skill to have.
Lack of scientific reasoning goes right through the industry. How do we know whether a shoe has a positive or negative effect on the horse when we apply it? Why are there no set parameters to this based on science and research for any new shoe coming onto the market? Would this not assist farriers and horse owners world wide in their choice of the most correct shoe for their horse and the discipline they compete in?
Example: I had a meeting with the Victorian Racing Commission a few weeks ago and discussed this very point. How do they test new shoes that come onto the market before they are accepted as suitable for racing. They told me they apply them to the 'clerk of the course' horse and if he goes ok for a few weeks then they give them the big tick. Surely we should use a more science based approach than that, shouldn't we? We are talking about the welfare and performance of horses worth millions of dollars which race at 100% effort. I rarely see the 'clerk of the course' horse get out of a light canter at best.
And after hearing you guys go on with all your egotistical ****, I would hope that the future of the farriery world does not rest on your shoulders, no disrespect meant to anyone :)
And you are right whoever said that there are fantastic farriers on here and 1000yrs of ac***ulative experience, the very reason I came her to pose my question in the first place. Ok, you did disappoint me a little as i was hoping for a more educated answer, but, what you are so good at is based on a sound knowledge of the information that is already out there and the ability to shape a shoe to the foot of a horse. And I am sure there are few better!But, I am talking about something a little different. Who says we have already found all of the answers. And if we haven't, does that mean that the research till this point may be wrong? If this is so, maybe some of what we have learnt could be wrong too. Maybe, maybe not, but the answers will not lie in the ability to nail on a shoe, it will be in science based research and understanding.
I would be interested to hear how the US Racing Commission assess shoes suitable for racing before approval is given. Does anyone know this?
And, as for me coming on here trying to prove myself better than you all, well I was asking the questions, it was you who were yelling the answers and telling me I don't know anything!! I don't think I am better or worse than anyone else, maybe I just look at things a little differently and maybe research things before I open my mouth, unlike so many others. Maybe I don't see things in just black and white as many of you seem to. There is a lot of grey in my vision of farriery, and that means there is much still to learn. Remember, the best question to ask is the one you already know the answer to!!

Have a great day.

PS: I don't think I will be getting much of a pay day for pointing out a fundamental flaw in the Cytek shoeing system. I don't think many people really care about them anymore. What I will say is that our research (conducted over the last 4 years) has shown they are one of a few shoes that are not suitable for any horse, at any time, under any conditions. And that has nothing to do with nail holes, the ability to shape the shoe or vibration!
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RE:Cytec 16 Jun 2006 07:33 #45

There are members of this forum who are here to learn and most of the members did not respond to this post, but read it as it developed. I for one am here to learn and find that your one size fits all attitude is just like the others you are criticizing. I really would like to know what you know.

Ty
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