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TOPIC: Fish Mouth/ Grand Prix

Fish Mouth/ Grand Prix 09 Jan 2009 23:52 #1

  • Jaye Perry
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Here is one today of a horse that needed an over sized shoe and some lateral support. I "REALLY" thought the horse needed some support:







A half-assed attempt with a pair of Grand Prixs:

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RE:Fish Mouth/ Grand Prix 09 Jan 2009 23:54 #2

  • Jaye Perry
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Here they are nailed up; feet were awful!






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RE:Fish Mouth/ Grand Prix 10 Jan 2009 00:08 #3

  • calshoer
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Broken pelvis or what? How was his stance and movement before and after the shoeing? What was so awful about the feet?
Patty Stiller CNBF,CLS
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RE:Fish Mouth/ Grand Prix 10 Jan 2009 00:10 #4

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calshoer wrote:
Broken pelvis or what? How was his stance and movement before and after the shoeing? What was so awful about the feet?

EPM; I just didn't like the integrity:cool:
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RE:Fish Mouth/ Grand Prix 10 Jan 2009 00:53 #5

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EPM and he didn't fall over on you....nice work. :)
Patty Stiller CNBF,CLS
www.hoofcareonline.com
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RE:Fish Mouth/ Grand Prix 10 Jan 2009 00:54 #6

  • Jaye Perry
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calshoer wrote:
EPM and he didn't fall over on you....nice work. :)

Hell, she is jumping and getting lead changes!:eek:
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RE:Fish Mouth/ Grand Prix 10 Jan 2009 07:32 #7

  • Bill Adams
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I have a few that I put onion heels on. They are gona graduate to fish mouths.

A rightous man regardeth the life of his beast. Proverbs 12:10
I don't give a damn for a man who can only spell a word one way. Mark Twain
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RE:Fish Mouth/ Grand Prix 10 Jan 2009 15:47 #8

It took me some time to realize that the mere shape of a shoe does a about all for lateral support. Meaning that there is no need to forge out the branch with the risk of not being able to get out enough or getting the slope too close to the heel.

Just by shaping the shoe for (lateral) support you can do a whole lot more to provide abaxial support. Way more than you could ever hope to achieve just widening the lateral branch forging wise that is.



Ronald Aalders
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RE:Fish Mouth/ Grand Prix 10 Jan 2009 17:38 #9

  • Rick Burten
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Why was a fish-mouth heel indicated?
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
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RE:Fish Mouth/ Grand Prix 10 Jan 2009 22:17 #10

  • Jaye Perry
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Rick Burten wrote:
Why was a fish-mouth heel indicated?

Slightly over shod and a forging excercise!;)
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RE:Fish Mouth/ Grand Prix 14 Jan 2009 00:34 #11

Ronald Aalders wrote:
It took me some time to realize that the mere shape of a shoe does a about all for lateral support. Meaning that there is no need to forge out the branch with the risk of not being able to get out enough or getting the slope too close to the heel.

Just by shaping the shoe for (lateral) support you can do a whole lot more to provide abaxial support. Way more than you could ever hope to achieve just widening the lateral branch forging wise that is.



Ronald Aalders

I disagree Ronald. Widening the branch adds more ground surface and provides more support than a shoe with the same width and reshaped. The benefit of doing this is the shoe can be fit without having excess shoe beyond the hoof capsule which is a must in muddy paddock unless you like going back and replacing shoes.
Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:Fish Mouth/ Grand Prix 14 Jan 2009 04:22 #12

I noticed before that you also appear not to agree to the reasoning behind reducing break over forces (DP) either Phil.

Where a excessively long break over length compared to the support length has heels pushed into the ground, simply because the amount of foot surface in the posterior part of the foot is bigger than the anterior part (if and when the COA is not the middle between support and break over) from a DP point of view, likewise will a wider laterally supported foot "float" more than the medial part in the LM view. Simply because the surface on the lateral side is bigger. The foot/sole itself supports too.

Now for the amount of surface we can easily calculate that the few millimeters added by widening the lateral branch are greatly outweighed by reshaping the lateral branch, offsetting it and allowing more support to the lateral side. Have a look at the picture and try and find the COA here too. With a few anatomical differences (the width of the joint for one) that COA is the natural/normal middle of support for LM purposes also.


Ronald Aalders
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RE:Fish Mouth/ Grand Prix 14 Jan 2009 04:56 #13

Jaye Perry wrote:
EPM; I just didn't like the integrity:cool:
looking at the pics besides the epm is this an older horse?
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RE:Fish Mouth/ Grand Prix 14 Jan 2009 13:23 #14

Ronald Aalders wrote:
I noticed before that you also appear not to agree to the reasoning behind reducing break over forces (DP) either Phil.

Where a excessively long break over length compared to the support length has heels pushed into the ground, simply because the amount of foot surface in the posterior part of the foot is bigger than the anterior part (if and when the COA is not the middle between support and break over) from a DP point of view, likewise will a wider laterally supported foot "float" more than the medial part in the LM view. Simply because the surface on the lateral side is bigger. The foot/sole itself supports too.

Now for the amount of surface we can easily calculate that the few millimeters added by widening the lateral branch are greatly outweighed by reshaping the lateral branch, offsetting it and allowing more support to the lateral side. Have a look at the picture and try and find the COA here too. With a few anatomical differences (the width of the joint for one) that COA is the natural/normal middle of support for LM purposes also.


Ronald Aalders

You also have to factor in the thickness of the shoe. I can see where reshapeing the branch would offer support, but not as much in my opinion as increasing the width of the material. Width and thickness are part of the equation. I am glad you brought up breakover in this discussion. I also think the width of the shoe in the toe has the same effect as the width of material in the heels. Ground reaction forces, width and depth of the shoe and fit effect the mechanics of a horse.

Take a broad toe with increased width in material, you now have a toe weighted shoe that offers more float when it impacts the ground. This may be what you want depending on the situation with the horse, however it could also exasperate another problem.

Reduceing the width of material is also another tool, when you are attempting to figure out a package.

I do not think this is simple at all. May I suggest running this by someone like Hayden Price who has looked at a variaty of shoes with gate analysis. I am still learning ground reaction forces and conformation.
Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:Fish Mouth/ Grand Prix 14 Jan 2009 13:33 #15

  • BPethick
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Phil Armitage wrote:
You also have to factor in the thickness of the shoe. I can see where reshapeing the branch would offer support, but not as much in my opinion as increasing the width of the material. Width and thickness are part of the equation. I am glad you brought up breakover in this discussion. I also think the width of the shoe in the toe has the same effect as the width of material in the heels. Ground reaction forces, width and depth of the shoe and fit effect the mechanics of a horse.

Take a broad toe with increased width in material, you now have a toe weighted shoe that offers more float when it impacts the ground. This may be what you want depending on the situation with the horse, however it could also exasperate another problem.

Reduceing the width of material is also another tool, when you are attempting to figure out a package.

I do not think this is simple at all. May I suggest running this by someone like Carl Hayden who has looked at a variaty of shoes with gate analysis. I am still learning ground reaction forces and conformation.

I think you mean "Hayden Price"?
Bob Pethick CJF AFA #1340
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Only those who have the patience to do things perfectly will acquire the skill to do difficult things easily...
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