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TOPIC: anvil horns

RE:anvil horns 19 Jan 2009 23:01 #61

  • Jaye Perry
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here's the one I thought was one but I was mistaken, the Fisher doesn't have a clip horn, this one was re-done by Mankel( the shippin' tape:o) and yes it was time for a new pair of White tennies:p:

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RE:anvil horns 19 Jan 2009 23:11 #62

  • Mike Ferrara
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George Geist wrote:
Brian,
Shoeing of horses and repair of essential equipment can be done without iron production. A few assignments required to graduate the old Ft Riley school was making shoes out of twisted baling wire as well as forge welding worn out shoes together to make new ones. It is perfectly probable that much of this occured as the anti-American treasonous rebellion was being put down by our proud and esteemed patriots.:D

It is common knowledge that blacksmith shops were military target #1. When this is the only industry a people have it must be taken out. In addition, feed warehouses, barns, silo's just about anything useful to the enemy was burned and destroyed. See the Shenandoah campaign as well as Sherman's march. Most of Virginia was left literally as destroyed as Germany after WWII.
George

Didn't the Confederate military have their own blacksmiths?

I know that farms, plantations and towns were destroyed but knocking the horns off anvils wouldn't do much. The post vice is used as much or more in a blacksmith shop and we don't hear things like that about them. I think it's because they didn't fall apart but the horns and heels did break off on anvils and it makes a nice story
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RE:anvil horns 19 Jan 2009 23:24 #63

  • Jaye Perry
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Mike Ferrara;-Didn't the Confederate military have their own blacksmiths?

...
Jeb Stuart's Calvary had shoes on their horses; the infantry didn't have shoes for the most part:eek:
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RE:anvil horns 19 Jan 2009 23:31 #64

  • George Geist
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Mike Ferrara wrote:
Didn't the Confederate military have their own blacksmiths?
Sure did. Matter of fact without the benefit of the northern horseshoe factories they had to pretty much handmake everything. Perhaps best job in history of doing something with nothing. Their inspiration is all the more of a motivator for everyone to practice making shoes:D
I know that farms, plantations and towns were destroyed but knocking the horns off anvils wouldn't do much. The post vice is used as much or more in a blacksmith shop and we don't hear things like that about them. I think it's because they didn't fall apart but the horns and heels did break off on anvils and it makes a nice story
We have a few guys on these boards who have had the misfortune to have seen wars firsthand. I'm sure to a man they can attest that the vandalism and wanton destruction that are part of the aftermath of any war is not always logical. Wreck an anvil a shop's out of business. Burn the place down it's out longer than it takes to replace an anvil. Any kind of industry is always a primary target.

Now, this indisputable fact is mentioned in more than one history book and military manual. Am I to understand that because 1 guy on anvilfire told you something you'll go ahead and believe it? Or are you just amusing yourself by looking for something to argue about?:)
George
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RE:anvil horns 19 Jan 2009 23:42 #65

  • Mike Ferrara
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George Geist wrote:
Sure did. Matter of fact without the benefit of the northern horseshoe factories they had to pretty much handmake everything. Perhaps best job in history of doing something with nothing. Their inspiration is all the more of a motivator for everyone to practice making shoes:D

We have a few guys on these boards who have had the misfortune to have seen wars firsthand. I'm sure to a man they can attest that the vandalism and wanton destruction that are part of the aftermath of any war is not always logical. Wreck an anvil a shop's out of business. Burn the place down it's out longer than it takes to replace an anvil. Any kind of industry is always a primary target.

Now, this indisputable fact is mentioned in more than one history book and military manual.

I asked for a reference. What history book indicates that there was a concerted effort to knock the horns off of anvils?

Am I to understand that because 1 guy on anvilfire told you something you'll go ahead and believe it? Or are you just amusing yourself by looking for something to argue about?:)
George

Absolutely not. I don't know one way or the other but all I'm hearing is stories with no supporting evidence...which goes along with what was said on Anvilfire pretty well. It has all the ingredients of a good urban legend.
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RE:anvil horns 20 Jan 2009 00:19 #66

  • George Geist
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Mike Ferrara wrote:
I asked for a reference. What history book indicates that there was a concerted effort to knock the horns off of anvils?
Anvils in America by Richard Postman pp 156-157 in reference to Fisher Anvils:

"The "Eagle" Holding the "Anchor", cast in a number of different styles, was the company's trademark, along with the name "Fisher" on the front of the foot under the horn. Fisher & Norris stated in their advertisementsthat the "Eagle" had to be there if it was a genuine "Fisher" anvil. However, some of the anvils I have recorded are missing the "Eagle" while bearing the rest of the "Fisher" trademarks and are definitely Fisher anvils. At first I thought somebody left the "Eagle" off of the pattern by mistake, and you do not s c r a p a perfectly good anvil for such a mistake. As the time past I kept recording more of these "Eagle"-less Fisher anvils. Finally a reliable source came up with an answer that makes sense and is most likely true. After the Civil War Southerners, for the most part, held the United States Federal Government in contempt. (I know because my mother's side of the family is very Southern). The "Eagle" represented the Federal Government. I was told that the Federal Cavalry, when raiding towns in the South, made a point of finding the blacksmith's shops and destroying the smith's anvils whenever possible. This mischeif made it difficult for the smith to shoe horses for the Southern Cavalry or to make other repairs for the Southern forces. As a result many anvils were needed in the South after the War.Fisher apparently discovered the dislike of the "Eagle" by Southern smiths who were reluctant to buy thier anvils, and removed this symbol from anvils being shipped to the South. I have no idea how long this practice lasted and you can be sure no one put anything in writing, but I would guess it lasted close to the beginning of the 20th century, if not longer. If you find an anvil that is a Fisher in every respect except missing the "Eagle", you probably have one of these Southern Fisher anvils". (Postman 156-157)
This touches on 2 things I mentioned. There are other places where this is mentioned like old issues of Anvil magazine and possibly even in Butler's books.

Your turn Mike, find me some disproof besides hearsay of a guy on the internet:rolleyes:
George
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RE:anvil horns 20 Jan 2009 00:27 #67

  • brian robertson
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George, what do you think was the "technique" for dehorning all these anvils?

I could see the anvil's temper being drawn in the fire that consumed the blacksmith shop making it too soft to be much good but "knocking the horn off" sounds like a too much of a waste of manpower to be plausable.
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RE:anvil horns 20 Jan 2009 00:31 #68

  • George Geist
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brian robertson wrote:
George, what do you think was the "technique" for dehorning all these anvils?

I could see the anvil's temper being drawn in the fire that consumed the blacksmith shop making it too soft to be much good but "knocking the horn off" sounds like a too much of a waste of manpower to be plausable.
Old wrought iron anvils I'm sure several guys wailing away for all they were worth with sledge hammers on ends of horns and/or heels would be a good way to do it.
George
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RE:anvil horns 20 Jan 2009 00:37 #69

  • brian robertson
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I see new contest on the horizon. Let me work on the logistics for awhile.
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RE:anvil horns 20 Jan 2009 01:39 #70

  • IRNWKR_2
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Mike Ferrara wrote:
It doesn't even sound reasonable given that it would be a lot of work for something that would have little or no effect.

Why would you say little or no effect, problably not the same as a soldier returning to a burnt home, and a dead family but still effective. I dont know for sure how much force it would take to shear the horn of an early cast but Problably not as much as you think.
Jason Gilliland
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RE:anvil horns 20 Jan 2009 03:42 #71

  • clinkercjf
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George Geist wrote:
Very true Bill.

It was also believed that the Fisher Anvil company for a time manufactured some anvils without the familiar eagle trademark which were intended for sale in the south.
George

I have one! It is a small anvil, I believe 80 Lbs. dated 1892. I'll try to get pictures tomorrow morning and post them.
Time is a great teacher, but unfortunately it kills all its pupils. Louis Hector Berlioz

Troy Ehrmantraut, CJF
2002 Journeyman Practical High Score Award.
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RE:anvil horns 20 Jan 2009 09:53 #72

  • Mike Ferrara
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George Geist wrote:
This touches on 2 things I mentioned. There are other places where this is mentioned like old issues of Anvil magazine and possibly even in Butler's books.

Your turn Mike, find me some disproof besides hearsay of a guy on the internet:rolleyes:
George


So...Postman says that southerners didn't like the eagle and fisher made anvils without it. How does that document a concerted effort by the Union to break horns off anvils? Postman says that he was told that union soldiers destroyed anvils. Who told him that? Maybe it was Jock's buddy. Anyway it's just hearsay.

Anvil Magazine? I read those articles and they didn't cite any sources. They just repeated the same old story...like Jock said.

Come on George, historians know a lot about the civil war...just one real source?
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RE:anvil horns 20 Jan 2009 10:05 #73

  • Mike Ferrara
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IRNWKR_2 wrote:
Why would you say little or no effect, problably not the same as a soldier returning to a burnt home, and a dead family but still effective.

You don't need a horn on an anvil. Why don't we hear stories about them destroying post vices...or collecting hammers...or whatever?

I don't doubt that blacksmith shops were destroyed along with the rest of the town but I haven't seen any evidence that there was a concerted military effort to break anvils.


I dont know for sure how much force it would take to shear the horn of an early cast but Problably not as much as you think.

I don't know how many of those anvils are cast vs wrought with a welded on plate but, that's just it. Breaking of the horn was a fairly common failure mode. Manufacturing flaws and misuse seem the more likely reason we see anvils without horns.

I have an anvil that had part of the horn broken off but the anvil was never in the south. Must have been some vindictive southerner came up here and knocked the horn off for revenge. LOL
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RE:anvil horns 20 Jan 2009 10:09 #74

  • Mike Ferrara
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brian robertson wrote:
George, what do you think was the "technique" for dehorning all these anvils?

I could see the anvil's temper being drawn in the fire that consumed the blacksmith shop making it too soft to be much good but "knocking the horn off" sounds like a too much of a waste of manpower to be plausable.

Lots of anvils with fire damage because shops, houses, garages ect burn down with the anvil inside.

The horn is soft and some (most?) were forge welded on...and sometimes break off.
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RE:anvil horns 20 Jan 2009 10:26 #75

  • Mike Ferrara
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brian robertson wrote:
I see new contest on the horizon. Let me work on the logistics for awhile.

No, I'm not going to try to break the horn off my anvil! LOL

But, I can make a shoe or shoe a horse without using the horn.
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