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TOPIC: Anvil face heat treatment

RE:Anvil face heat treatment 27 Sep 2008 15:12 #16

  • IRNWKR_2
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Bradley-1stChoice wrote:
Well Golly, I guess you got me there,
That was an exceptionally wonderful explanation, and so I concede. :D


Im Relieved....Glad were on the same page;)
Jason Gilliland
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RE:Anvil face heat treatment 27 Sep 2008 21:52 #17

  • Bill Adams
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Attempting to heat treat an anvil without knowing exactly what you have to work with can ruin a good anvil. You can pop off a welded face, or soften it or crack it. You could bust the whole thing.

A rightous man regardeth the life of his beast. Proverbs 12:10
I don't give a damn for a man who can only spell a word one way. Mark Twain
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RE:Anvil face heat treatment 28 Sep 2008 02:32 #18

  • NorvalWilhelm
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Kentucky Boy wrote:
Look at the 9th post down on repair...
http://www.iforgeiron.com/forum/f7/anvil-repair-6803/

Actually reading the 8th post tells you how it is done. It also shows that anvils are NOT heat treated. Slow cooling full softens metal and the temperatures used certainly do nothing to harden it.
[SIGPIC]C:\Documents and Settings\norval\My Documents\My Pictures\jan22 017.jpg[/SIGPIC]
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RE:Anvil face heat treatment 28 Sep 2008 23:52 #19

I know that I wsa just giving the link for some reference..Most anvils are a cast body with a steel face..Except the Arm and Hammer brand (not vulcan, but the actual arm and hammer brand) were wrought iron with a steel face..The only forged anvil made today is Peddinghaus..There is a gentleman on that site that actually makes forged anvils(along with three or four other smiths)..He would know more about the process than me..Ive seen forges myself big enough to heat anvil sized chunks of metal in, they are out there...There is one maker casting his colonial anvils entirely of H-13 steel..
This link has a few pics of Anvils and anchors being forged..He goes by Bruce Wilcock on that site and Id say he knows more about making anvils than most if anyone wants to ask him..
http://www.iforgeiron.com/forum/f7/forging-anvil-1041/index2.html
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RE:Anvil face heat treatment 29 Sep 2008 11:54 #20

  • George Geist
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NorvalWilhelm wrote:
If you were heating it with a torch a quick way to tell if it is hot enough is to use a magnet. Steel is a body centered cubic/structure. When heated to the proper range it's structure changes to a face centered cubic or non magnetic.
So if a magnet doesn't touch the steel it is hot enough to quench.
But once quenched it would be too hard if you did a good job so you need to temper it by reheating to a lower temperature.
Again I can not see anyone doing this to 70-100 pound piece of steel.
I also have a number of rockwell hardness testers and no way I could hold an anvil and take a reading.
Taking a file to something gives a good indication of hardness. A spring is about 44 RC, a cam shaft 62 RC.
If you can leave a good mark with a file it is soft or in the 20 or 30 range.
Most of the new ones (cast steel) today are advertised out of the factory at 48 Rockwells. This works well as ideally a hammer should be about 50.

Are you saying there is no way to properly test for this?
George
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RE:Anvil face heat treatment 29 Sep 2008 22:30 #21

  • NorvalWilhelm
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George Geist wrote:
Most of the new ones (cast steel) today are advertised out of the factory at 48 Rockwells. This works well as ideally a hammer should be about 50.

Are you saying there is no way to properly test for this?
George

No. If you had a portable unit you could make a RC test. I have bench model hardness testers so there is no way I could test an anvil.
I know car leaf springs are about 44 or so RC and if you take a file to one it seems fairly hard. I did take a file to my Made in England anvil and it actually filed very easily so it is not hardened. It is the 45KG one or about 100 pounds.
I don't have a portable RC tester or I would do a hardness check.
Mine are well below that 50RC A cam in your car is only in the low 60's so at 50 the anvil if fairly hard.\
Wouldn't a hammer ring or bounce more off a hard anvil???
[SIGPIC]C:\Documents and Settings\norval\My Documents\My Pictures\jan22 017.jpg[/SIGPIC]
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RE:Anvil face heat treatment 29 Sep 2008 23:35 #22

  • George Geist
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NorvalWilhelm wrote:
Wouldn't a hammer ring or bounce more off a hard anvil???

I dont think so. Not really sure if rebound and ring have much to do with each other but I would think it to be brittle if too hard and liable to chip and crack.

Older anvils had a chronic problem with this before modern hardening and tempering methods as evidenced by the chipped up raggedy edges and corners on almost all of the ones you can find.

These were usually cooled under a waterfall. Corners got much harder and more brittle while the body of the anvil stayed hot longer thus remaining softer.

George
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RE:Anvil face heat treatment 30 Sep 2008 00:33 #23

George Geist wrote:
Corners got much harder and more brittle while the body of the anvil stayed hot longer thus remaining softer.

George

That's why I like my hollow core anvil, cooling took place inside as well as outside.
Bradley SaintJohn

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RE:Anvil face heat treatment 30 Sep 2008 00:36 #24

George Geist wrote:

Older anvils had a chronic problem with this before modern hardening and tempering methods as evidenced by the chipped up raggedy edges and corners on almost all of the ones you can find.

George


Might this chipping and raggedy edges just be from years and years and years of use??? I'll be the first one to admit that I'm hard on an anvil, and any shop anvil I use for more than a year or two will have plenty of evidence that I've been around, hard or soft.:eek:
"Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects." Will Rogers

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBimQu6Pxxs
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RE:Anvil face heat treatment 30 Sep 2008 01:07 #25

  • George Geist
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Dave Purves RJF wrote:
Might this chipping and raggedy edges just be from years and years and years of use??? I'll be the first one to admit that I'm hard on an anvil, and any shop anvil I use for more than a year or two will have plenty of evidence that I've been around, hard or soft.:eek:
For crying out loud Dave! Must Jaye teach you basic hammer control?:)

Yeah use and abuse can take it's toll but according to stuff I've read those old anvils chipped up pretty quickly.
George
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RE:Anvil face heat treatment 30 Sep 2008 03:26 #26

Ring and rebound can greatly depend on the brand of anvil as well....My Arm and hammer 100 pounder rings like a church bell and bounces like a vollyball...My 200 pound fisher bounces just as well but sounds like a wet sack of taters...Fishers are notorius for little sound because of the way they were constructed. Still a fine anvil though..My arm and hammer is a forged body anvil..It will hurt your ears if you dont take some small measures to deadedn the sound..Vulcans dont ring very loud..My Hay Budden has a medium ring but good bounce..I personally pay more attention to rebound than ring..Heres some examples of newer anvil hardness...
Nimbas are HC 50-52
Peddinghaus (cant remember exactly but its over 50)
KOHLSWA HC 55-57
Reffinhaus HC 59 to a depth of 1" !!! (these things are sweeeettttt!!)
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RE:Anvil face heat treatment 30 Sep 2008 13:51 #27

  • Tom Stovall CJF
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If you've got a two or three piece anvil and need to build up the face, preheat the face with a pear burner, then build it up with 7018, chipping and grinding to metal between each pass. (It not too difficult to keep the face flat, but if you skip the preheating, you can pop the face off the base.)

I don't know anything about the hardness of 7018 on the Rockwell C scale, but a face built up with 7018 won't be as soft as the old Centaur (Kohlswa) farrier anvils and will be lots handier than a truck bumper. :)
Tom Stovall, CJF
"The only foolish question is the one left unasked."
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RE:Anvil face heat treatment 30 Sep 2008 14:35 #28

  • Jack Evers
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I have about a 280 pound Vulcan in the shop (not the hardest anvil to start with) that I picked up with large gouges in the edges where someone had been using it as a rest to use a cuttimg torch and had gotten into the edges with the torch.

I built it up with 7013 rod (the AC equivalent of Tom's 7018) and it's worked well for about 15 years. The edges are beginning to round and I need to freshen them up, but as I said it's been 15 years. I did preheat.

A tip to building edges is to clamp a piece of copper to the vertical edge, then fill the gap with a down hand weld. Grind flat, then lay the anvil on it's side and repeat with the copper against the face. The copper (melting point about 1900 degrees) won't stick to the weld metal and conducts heat well enough that it won't melt - it just forms a dam to keep the weld in place. It may take a couple of cycles, but if you weld like I do it saves a lot of trial and error on large defects.
Jack Evers CJF AFA#426

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The older I get, the more horses I shoe, the fewer things that I can absolutely, positively fix.
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RE:Anvil face heat treatment 01 Oct 2008 05:12 #29

  • Bill Adams
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Tom,
You are bringing back memories of hot days in a structural shop. Pass after pass of 7018, one and a half inch to one and a half inch T bracket 100% peneration, grinding the edge of each pass as it was to be sonagrammed, and yes, it passed.
Nickel rod and hard facing works too.
As Jack said copper is a good trick and alum will work to if its a half inch thich at least.
All these repairs work fine if you work hot iron on the anvil when they're done.

A rightous man regardeth the life of his beast. Proverbs 12:10
I don't give a damn for a man who can only spell a word one way. Mark Twain
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RE:Anvil face heat treatment 15 Oct 2008 08:58 #30

Just thought i,d update on what I ended up doing.
http://i446.photobucket.com/albums/qq190/horseshoe182/100_0169.jpg?t=1224060847

I rang up two heat treatment works in Sydney after Bill Adams said that it might bust the anvil. Both of them first asked what was in it (what type of steel), and I said, I don,t know. The first bloke esimated $150-$200 dollars to heatreat. The second bloke said that the because we don,t know whats in it, it might crack in half, or even quarters. He said that flogging hot metal on it will take some of the temper out of it over time anyway, and that if it was his anvil, he wouldn,t heatreat it, just leave it be. I thought that it may have been a straight forward procedure, lucky I did my homework on it, or I may have buggered a good anvil.

So I didn,t heat treat it. I sent it off to a mate to mill the face up, he said it was hard steel. how hard , I don,t know. I reckon it came up ok.

Thanks to all the responses

Mick
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