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TOPIC: Farmilo's Hoof-Line

RE:Farmilo's Hoof-Line 05 Oct 2006 20:02 #16

  • Bill Adams
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Well the score is two Toms and one Phil so I have to go with tieing high and stout with a rope halter and there is less that can go wrong.

Looks like another diatribe by an inarticulate, anonmous, spokesperson for all horses that we will never hear from again. No problem reaming David F., but won't identify themselves.
Bill

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I don't give a damn for a man who can only spell a word one way. Mark Twain
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RE:Farmilo's Hoof-Line 05 Oct 2006 20:06 #17

  • Red Amor
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I dont know Dave personaly
Ive only delt with him and his wife over the phone
I only ever found them both very nice to talk to and very helpfull
They were true to their word with prompet reliable service and delivery of their products

If youve nought nice to say
say far-kall
Mark Anthony Amor
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Mind how ya go now ;)
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RE:Farmilo's Hoof-Line 05 Oct 2006 23:54 #18

Hi Tom S. I agree with many of the things you said. There is an inherent risk around horses period and it is very disturbing to see anyone get hurt by a horse worse when it is a child.

Training horses to tie is not the farriers job. The farriers job is to properly interact around the horse, know how to read the horse and make the right choice before you do your job. In New England most horses are cross tied for shoeing without any problems. The ones that do not tie are held. I work in several public barns, many times full of people and other horses tied in the same aisleway rarely a problem. The times I have had trouble with a horse that pulled back in the ties that will not break seemed more dangerous than if they would just break. The panic, noise and thrashing gets other horses tied in the aisleway spooked and also panics people standing around. I find the best thing to do when this happens is to back off and reduce the pressure on the horse instead of what most horse owners do when they run up and try to settle the horse down. If I do not know a horse I will make sure they can break away, every time I have seen a horse easly break away they settle down pretty quick. I go get them and have someon hold them. A holder is also a risk, not all holders are good at holding horses. Just today one of my clients husband was holding a horse that I have been doing for years without ever haveing a problem. He got annoyed with the horse doeing whatever and shanked him while I was clinching on my knee and the horse shoved his foot down fast and hard, lucky for me I move quick and didnt get injured. Most of the time I can calm a nervous horse and they relax and trust me. I find it is safer for me to work alone, show a nervous horse I am not going to hurt him/her and gain trust.

Do you tie horses eye level at arm length to shoe them? I could never figure out how to pull the foot foward with a post, wall or fence that close to the front of the horse.
Phil Armitage, CF
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"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:Farmilo's Hoof-Line 05 Oct 2006 23:59 #19

Bill Adams wrote:
Well the score is two Toms and one Phil so I have to go with tieing high and stout with a rope halter and there is less that can go wrong.

Looks like another diatribe by an inarticulate, anonmous, spokesperson for all horses that we will never hear from again. No problem reaming David F., but won't identify themselves.
Bill

Bill at least that way you can pull the foot foward. ;)

Also if they are tied high and stout they have more options to move and get out of trouble.
Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:Farmilo's Hoof-Line 06 Oct 2006 00:19 #20

  • Gary_Miller
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If I have a horse that pulls when tied I just attach a 16 ft lead and work with the horse untied with the lead in my back pocket or laying on the ground where I can step on the rope. My favorite place it to lay the rope between my hoof knife handle and my leg closest to the horse, lots easier to grab the rope if need be.

This way if the horse pulls back I'm not under an excited horse trying to save my butt. Instead I have 100% control of the horse. When I need to go to the truck then I just tie the horse up. They can jurk, pull, or act like a plan puke all the want when I'm not under them.


Gary
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RE:Farmilo's Hoof-Line 06 Oct 2006 00:29 #21

Gary_Miller wrote:
If I have a horse that pulls when tied I just attach a 16 ft lead and work with the horse untied with the lead in my back pocket or laying on the ground where I can step on the rope. My favorite place it to lay the rope between my hoof knife handle and my leg closest to the horse, lots easier to grab the rope if need be.

This way if the horse pulls back I'm not under an excited horse trying to save my butt. Instead I have 100% control of the horse. When I need to go to the truck then I just tie the horse up. They can jurk, pull, or act like a plan puke all the want when I'm not under them.


Gary

That does work pretty good. I have my 16' lead and rope halter handy if needed, works great and I agree much more control.
Phil Armitage, CF
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"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:Farmilo's Hoof-Line 06 Oct 2006 01:51 #22

  • J.H. shoeing
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OK
First- to Phil's not under standing how to take a foot forward. Move the horses rear end over about a step and you can take that foot forward even if he is tied to solid wall with a ring(some old mexican masons here still building barns out of the rock). If he is not standing completely "square" to the wall you will be able to take a foot forward. But in my limited experience, I have taken several feet forward when the donkey has been tied at eye level and arms length and them standing square with the wall.

I agree with Mr.Tom on this, broke is as broke is as broke does. I had the occasion yesterday to shoe a horse that is approaching his teenage years and the owner advised that they had owned him since he was a yearling. After the third time he set back I advised the owner that I would finish the horse but they would have to find someone else to shoe him next time. Looked to me like they could train a horse to stand for shoeing since it was the only one they had.

Yes, I have had to and still do, occaisionaly, a/some ill behaved horses.

Phil seems like I remember this saying from West Virginia......
Jeff Holder

Some people are like Slinky’s, pretty much useless but make you smile when you push them down the stairs.
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RE:Farmilo's Hoof-Line 06 Oct 2006 01:57 #23

  • Tom Stovall CJF
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Phil Armitage in gray, deletia

Training horses to tie is not the farriers job.


Horses form habits on the basis of instinct and experience. Whenever one is silly enough to tie a horse with breakaway ties, one is training the horse to break away.

The farriers job is to properly interact around the horse, know how to read the horse and make the right choice before you do your job. In New England most horses are cross tied for shoeing without any problems. The ones that do not tie are held. I work in several public barns, many times full of people and other horses tied in the same aisleway rarely a problem. The times I have had trouble with a horse that pulled back in the ties that will not break seemed more dangerous than if they would just break. The panic, noise and thrashing gets other horses tied in the aisleway spooked and also panics people standing around. I find the best thing to do when this happens is to back off and reduce the pressure on the horse instead of what most horse owners do when they run up and try to settle the horse down. If I do not know a horse I will make sure they can break away, every time I have seen a horse easly break away they settle down pretty quick. I go get them and have someon hold them. A holder is also a risk, not all holders are good at holding horses. Just today one of my clients husband was holding a horse that I have been doing for years without ever haveing a problem. He got annoyed with the horse doeing whatever and shanked him while I was clinching on my knee and the horse shoved his foot down fast and hard, lucky for me I move quick and didnt get injured. Most of the time I can calm a nervous horse and they relax and trust me. I find it is safer for me to work alone, show a nervous horse I am not going to hurt him/her and gain trust.

You digress. When a farrier ties a horse in public, it's the farrier's responsibility to tie the horse properly, not to place the public at risk. A properly tied horse will stay tied whatever happens. Period! No excuses need apply. When some puke sets back in public, I think it's infiniely better to know the beast is going to stay tied instead of having to hope the beast "settles down" at some indeterminate point in time without causing any damage to some human, another horse, or the property. When a horse is tied properly, it can't hurt anyone or anything but itself; on the other hand, tying with breakaway ties puts everyone and everything on the ground at risk. As I see it, if one is shoeing horses in public, one's first obligation is to the public, not to the horse.

Do you tie horses eye level at arm length to shoe them?

When I tie a horse, it's always eye high, arm's length, with and to something that won't break until shortly after the horse's neck does. We get that sort of stuff with mother's milk where I was raised.

I could never figure out how to pull the foot foward with a post, wall or fence that close to the front of the horse.

You might try flexing the horse's carpus and learning to clinch and finish both sides of a front from the outside. NBD, it just takes a little practice, kinda like learning to use a rasp with both hands.
Tom Stovall, CJF
"The only foolish question is the one left unasked."
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RE:Farmilo's Hoof-Line 06 Oct 2006 10:27 #24

Tie anyway you want. The important thing is training. When you handle a horse you teach him to either trust or not, to respect or not. A properly trained horse trusts and respects these two things eliminate all the reasons for bad behavior.

I have never tied a horse so that it cannot break and I never will.
Phil Armitage, CF
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"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:Farmilo's Hoof-Line 06 Oct 2006 12:13 #25

  • Tom Stovall CJF
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Phil Armitage in gray

Tie anyway you want.

How nice to have your permission.

The important thing is training.

I'm not in the training business, but since all human/horse interaction involves training to some degree, I've sometimes found I had to take whatever steps were necessary to overcome the lack of same.

When you handle a horse you teach him to either trust or not, to respect or not.

Gag! Kindly spare me your smarmy, politically correct, nonsense. All human/horse interaction is based on this principle: Either one dominates the horse or one is dominated by the horse. Other than in the minds of the terminally anthropomorphic, there is no middleground, no partnership, no friendship, or other such silliness.

A properly trained horse trusts and respects these two things eliminate all the reasons for bad behavior.

Anthropomorphic twaddle. Horses form habits based on instinct and experience; nothing more, nothing less.

I have never tied a horse so that it cannot break and I never will.

Whether or not the horse is broke to tie and no matter what happens, when I tie a horse in public, the horse is damn sure going to stay tied! Unfortunately, I know what can happen when some puke breaks loose and freight trains a kid, so I tend to prepare for worst case scenarios instead of wishing and hoping everything will be hunky dory if something untoward happens. Such preparation may be overkill, but brain damage lasts a lifetime.

Assuming you carry liability insurance and may at some time shoe/trim in public place, you might want to have a little talk with your insurance agent about your exposure and the advisability of maintaining a policy that indisputably places the public at risk. You might also mention that you've made a public proclamation of your intent to maintain such a policy - it'll make his day. :)
Tom Stovall, CJF
"The only foolish question is the one left unasked."
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RE:Farmilo's Hoof-Line 06 Oct 2006 12:36 #26

  • T.L. Buck
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I am in total agreement with Tom and Jeff about making them tie and stay tied. I have done a few that have leaned back so hard on the lead rope to where the lead broke or the bullsnap broke and let me tell you it is a pretty scary situation. The last thing you need is a wreck in the scramble let alone some innocent person getting mowed over. I have since gone to a neck rope for a lead and now it is not even a factor of a horse getting away hurting somebody. If they lean back into it, it applies pressure to the back of their neck and they will come forward automatically. I have never seen a horse deliberately beat himself half to death because they can't get loose. Horses learn from the release of negative pressure. So it's kinda a training aid and the same time it keeps them tied and everybody safe.
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Main Entry: 1ex·pert .. Pronunciation: 'ek-"sp&rt, ik-'
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RE:Farmilo's Hoof-Line 06 Oct 2006 17:37 #27

Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
Assuming you carry liability insurance and may at some time shoe/trim in public place, you might want to have a little talk with your insurance agent about your exposure and the advisability of maintaining a policy that indisputably places the public at risk. You might also mention that you've made a public proclamation of your intent to maintain such a policy - it'll make his day. :)

Really now. From what I understand, you will do whatever it takes to keep a horse tied based on a very unfortunate accident that you witnessed. I am truely sorry that ever took place. Unfortunately the horse buisness is a very high risk. I have witnessed several very unfortunate accidents. Saw a horse kick a kid both hind feet right into her chest by a horse her parents claim would never kick. Saw a 4 Y.O boy get kicked and fly back a few yards by a horse I was shoeing and the horse was held by the mother. I kept insisting she keep her boy away from the horse. Witnessed a horse get loose from the rider at a horse show and run over a baby stroller, nobody got hurt amazeingly. My buddy had his legged snaped in half while clinching and finishing. My daughter was dragged and stommped on by her horse as she was leading it. I have been thrown on the pavement, run through trees, kicked, stepped on and bit. **** happens Tom, we cannot avoid it. But claiming that tieing a horse so they cannot break away is the safest thing to do is dead wrong. Thinking your the only one that has horsy experience and everyone else is a city slicker is BS.

Didnt you say that, tied good enough so that it does not break until just before there neck breaks. What does that mean Tom? Does that mean they break away anyways, however by that time you have maximum panic. Maybe in a court of law that means gross neglegence because of a dominateing stubborn ole man likes to be in total control until all hell breaks loose. Oh your not at fault, you did the best you could to supply the best rope and strongest anchor point. Geesh how did that horse break free and why the hell was he so frantic for crying out loud. Spare me your foolishness Tom. Your butt could easly be held accountable for causeing the problem. Injury to horses and inoccent by standers. I bet youj could easly convince people with your swagger that you truely know what your doing. Unfortunately there are people gullible enough to listen. Good day.
Phil Armitage, CF
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"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:Farmilo's Hoof-Line 06 Oct 2006 18:13 #28

  • Red Amor
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Crafty ole doorg yankin the younger doorg chain ud recon ;)
Mark Anthony Amor
If we want anymore excrement like that outta you we'll squeese ya head :eek:
Mind how ya go now ;)
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RE:Farmilo's Hoof-Line 06 Oct 2006 19:36 #29

  • Tom Stovall CJF
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Phil Armitage in gray

Really now. From what I understand, you will do whatever it takes to keep a horse tied based on a very unfortunate accident that you witnessed.

You understand nothing. When I tie a horse, the horse will stay tied because I'm responsible for any damage the horse might do to life or property should the beast come untied due to my negligence; i.e., failure to tie the horse properly. I've been tying horses as described longer than you've been housebroke, so it ain't nothing new.

I am truely sorry that ever took place. Unfortunately the horse buisness is a very high risk. I have witnessed several very unfortunate accidents. Saw a horse kick a kid both hind feet right into her chest by a horse her parents claim would never kick. Saw a 4 Y.O boy get kicked and fly back a few yards by a horse I was shoeing and the horse was held by the mother. I kept insisting she keep her boy away from the horse. Witnessed a horse get loose from the rider at a horse show and run over a baby stroller, nobody got hurt amazeingly. My buddy had his legged snaped in half while clinching and finishing. My daughter was dragged and stommped on by her horse as she was leading it. I have been thrown on the pavement, run through trees, kicked, stepped on and bit. **** happens Tom, we cannot avoid it.

One cannot rightfully disclaim responsibility for the consequences of an action for which one is responsible by saying, "Stuff happens." Instead, one takes whatever steps are reasonable and proper to negate the probability of stuff happening, one of which is always tying a horse properly when one ties a horse in public.

But claiming that tieing a horse so they cannot break away is the safest thing to do is dead wrong.

What part don't you understand? The object of the exercise is not to keep some ill broke puke safe from harm, it's to keep the public from being placed in harm's way by some ill broke puke.

Thinking your the only one that has horsy experience and everyone else is a city slicker is BS.

I've pointed out that you - no one else - have either a paucity of experience or an utterly unconscionable policy when it comes to tying horses in public. One fervently hopes it's the former as the latter would be despicable.

Didnt you say that, tied good enough so that it does not break until just before there neck breaks. What does that mean Tom?

Although your translation is somewhat inept, it means that if some puke sets back, I'd much rather see a dead horse than put an unsuspecting public at risk by my failure to act responsibly.

Does that mean they break away anyways, however by that time you have maximum panic. Maybe in a court of law that means gross neglegence because of a dominateing stubborn ole man likes to be in total control until all hell breaks loose.

When this particular "dominateing stubborn ole man" is responsible for the behavior of a horse in public, you can take it to the bank that I'm always in control - if, when, before, during, and after all hell breaks loose.

Oh your not at fault, you did the best you could to supply the best rope and strongest anchor point. Geesh how did that horse break free and why the hell was he so frantic for crying out loud.

Get it through your head that when I tie a horse in public, there ain't no "breaking free."

Spare me your foolishness Tom.


Your inability to logically defend an unconscionable and irresponsible policy that places the public at risk by the advocacy of using breakaway ties in no way relegates the practice of properly tying horses to realm of foolishness, quite to the contrary.

Your butt could easly be held accountable for causeing the problem.

Problem? What problem? A tied horse that stays tied in the midst of chaos is a solution, not problem.

Injury to horses and inoccent by standers.

I'm not the scholar attempting to abrogate his responsibility to the public welfare by advocating tying horses in public with breakaway ties, you are. A properly tied horse - eye high, arm's length, with and to something that won't break until after its neck does - can cause injury only to itself and its immediate surroundings. Seems like an "experienced" scholar such as yourself would be aware of that.

I bet youj could easly convince people with your swagger that you truely know what your doing.

It's not particularly difficult to convince folks you've seen the varmint when you have.

Unfortunately there are people gullible enough to listen.

That bunch of "gullible" folks is probably tying horses up so they'll stay tied, picking up weanling's feet, reading physics books, studying anatomy, voting independent, questioning authority, and in general marching to the beat of their own private drummers. Good on 'em!

Good day.

Don't start making nice, I may not be through pointing out your mistakes. :)
Tom Stovall, CJF
"The only foolish question is the one left unasked."
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RE:Farmilo's Hoof-Line 06 Oct 2006 23:22 #30

  • J.H. shoeing
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I remember now.

Are you simple?

You obviously have never been held responsible for the actions of the horses you shoe that broke away from your hay string.

Come on down into the real world of horseshoeing where political correctness, sugar cubes, and carrots are not the norm. You'll learn to tie them with an anchor chain if nessasary.

Would you rather be held accountable for ThunderheadsonofFlicka or little Bobby Jr that ThunderheadsonofFlicka scared/hurt/maimed/killed?
Jeff Holder

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