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TOPIC: Handmade heartbar

RE:Handmade heartbar 02 Aug 2008 16:39 #16

  • smitty88
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Nick,
made it for a horse it went on like a dream
it might look forward

if i can find the foot job i will post
Smitty88
John Mc Loughlin
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RE:Handmade heartbar 09 Aug 2008 03:58 #17

  • EDeSocio
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Here is a heart bar I made at the horse today.

High heel low heel quarter/arab cross I think he is somewhere between 10 and 19.. I am not too sure. Frog was prolapsed a half inch below the heels which were rolled under and crushed, toe run forward and sole dropped, thin and flat. I took the heels back and set the bar down a half inch to fit the frog.

First pic is the shoe forge finished shoe right out of the fire.. had to spin around the anvil to get away from the shadows. Second is the finished shoe nailed on and third is the side view pic of the hoof I was working on and finished product... Horse walked away... whew!

Any critiques and/or suggestions?

Nothing like forging a heartbar in 110 degree sunlight when work ethic tells you this would be the best thing for this horse.
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"Why Ike, whatever do you mean? Maybe poker's just not your game. I know! Let's have a spelling contest!"

Eric DeSocio CF
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RE:Handmade heartbar 09 Aug 2008 08:35 #18

  • Rick Burten
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EDeSocio wrote:
Frog was prolapsed a half inch below the heels which were rolled under and crushed, toe run forward and sole dropped, thin and flat. I took the heels back and set the bar down a half inch to fit the frog.

Since the frog was prolapsed and you pulled the heels back, why did you have to set the bar down? Did you use hoof testers on the frog/sole before you set the bar/shoe? Did you roll or rocker the toe of the shoe? Why did you plain stamp rather than fuller the shoe? Did you float the heels at all, or consider either reconstructing them with polymers or adding wedges to the package?

How did you determine how long to make the frog plate/where to set its tip?
Horse walked away... whew!

Always a good thing. :) Nice effort on your part.
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
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RE:Handmade heartbar 13 Aug 2008 12:14 #19

  • solidrockshoer
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Concave heartbar made today out of 3/4 x 3/8
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RE:Handmade heartbar 13 Aug 2008 12:19 #20

  • Mike Ferrara
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EDeSocio wrote:
Nothing like forging a heartbar in 110 degree sunlight when work ethic tells you this would be the best thing for this horse.

No way! I carry a patio umbrella so I have shade over the forge and I hang a fan on the back door of the truck.
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RE:Handmade heartbar 16 Aug 2008 07:34 #21

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Rick Burten wrote:
Since the frog was prolapsed and you pulled the heels back, why did you have to set the bar down?.
When I looked at the foot, the frog was a half inch below the heels, which rolled under. I trimmed the folded hoof wall but didn't want to put all the pressure on the frog, so I set the frog plate down to where there was contact but no pressure when nailed on.. figured the weight of the horse will give sufficient pressure...
Did you use hoof testers on the frog/sole before you set the bar/shoe? .
Yes
Did you roll or rocker the toe of the shoe? .
Set the shoe back to help pull the foot back from the enlongated form.
Why did you plain stamp rather than fuller the shoe?.
Plain stamped the shoe because since I make shoes on a horse by horse basis, at the horse I don't get to practice heart bars. I estimated my length by taking my fullered bar shoe length and adding the length of the frog plate I wanted, taking in consideration forging a nice little blunt tip. When all was said and done, the shoe fit the hoof, frog plate was a good 1/2 behind the tip of the frog and heals fit with nice expansion and length... no room for fullering so I put the creaser back and pulled out my E-head punch.
Did you float the heels at all, or consider either reconstructing them with polymers or adding wedges to the package?.
Didn't float the heels, the horse was moving fine with the foot as is, didn't feel artificial wedging was in line.
How did you determine how long to make the frog plate/where to set its tip?.
Well I considered the point of articulation, 3/8 of an inch behind the true apex of the frog, I went 1/2 inch just to be safe.. better to be short than long when setting a frog plate on a heart bar. As for how long to make it, I measured where I wanted the heels to set, measured where I wanted the tip to be and estimated the length... truly got lucky.


Always a good thing. :) Nice effort on your part.
It was true luck. I have made a total of 6 heartbar shoes. Only one of them was worth the quality to nail on. First 5 were junked during practice. This one was made at the horse... so glad he only needed one heartbar...
"Why Ike, whatever do you mean? Maybe poker's just not your game. I know! Let's have a spelling contest!"

Eric DeSocio CF
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RE:Handmade heartbar 17 Aug 2008 05:01 #22

  • Red Amor
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Eric
If I wanted it any rougher than that Id have to do it myself
good on Mate yeah :)
Mark Anthony Amor
If we want anymore excrement like that outta you we'll squeese ya head :eek:
Mind how ya go now ;)
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RE:Handmade heartbar 17 Aug 2008 12:57 #23

  • Rick Burten
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EDeSocio wrote:
When I looked at the foot, the frog was a half inch below the heels, which rolled under. I trimmed the folded hoof wall but didn't want to put all the pressure on the frog, so I set the frog plate down to where there was contact but no pressure when nailed on.. figured the weight of the horse will give sufficient pressure...

Sounds appropriate to me. :)
Plain stamped the shoe because since I make shoes on a horse by horse basis, at the horse I don't get to practice heart bars. I estimated my length by taking my fullered bar shoe length and adding the length of the frog plate I wanted, taking in consideration forging a nice little blunt tip. When all was said and done, the shoe fit the hoof, frog plate was a good 1/2 behind the tip of the frog and heals fit with nice expansion and length... no room for fullering so I put the creaser back and pulled out my E-head punch.

The reason I asked about this is because I feel that bar shoes are applied for therapeutic reasons. That being the case, one should endeavor to remove them with as little torque or pressure to the hoof as possible. A fullered shoe gives you this advantage, a plain stamped shoe does not.
Didn't float the heels, the horse was moving fine with the foot as is, didn't feel artificial wedging was in line.

Then what was the purpose of the heart bar? If the heels were already "in trouble", why not give them a chance to 'heal'?

If the horse had a broken back HPA, why would wedging not be indicated in this case?

Well I considered the point of articulation, 3/8 of an inch behind the true apex of the frog, I went 1/2 inch just to be safe..

How did you determine where the true apex of the frog was located?
better to be short than long when setting a frog plate on a heart bar. Asfor how long to make it, I measured where I wanted the heels to set, measured where I wanted the tip to be and estimated the length... truly got lucky.

I find that generally, luck is something that happens to people who work hard and are well prepared. IOW, you made your own luck. Good on you.
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
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RE:Handmade heartbar 17 Aug 2008 15:13 #24

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When I looked at the foot, the frog was a half inch below the heels, which rolled under. I trimmed the folded hoof wall but didn't want to put all the pressure on the frog, so I set the frog plate down to where there was contact but no pressure when nailed on.. figured the weight of the horse will give sufficient pressure...
Frankly, in my experience a heart bar is not necessary to help these kind of feet. I just trim the heels as far back as possible. I fit the shoe heels around the prolapsed frog, allowing most of the the frog to be on the ground ,level with ground surface of the shoe, and hopefully having a little extra of the very back of the frog(the part behind the impar ligament) extending past shoe (maybe 1/8" past) . The frog can function great this way and not be overloaded,ehile the very back of the frog where it can take the load more will help align the DIP joint as it supports the joint and moves the distal end of P2 forward.
IF the coffin joint needs more alignment even after the frog is on the ground, then I use a bar wedge pad to wedge the foot and gently sling the frog up a bit more.

The (the other half of the formula of improving these kind of feet is to move breakover back to a spot no further forward than 1/4" forward of the tip of P3. In this case that wopuld be about at a line across the back of your toe nails. This foot is very distorted (stretched). The frog is also stretched. The dot is where the true live apex would be found .
Moving the breakover back helps the toe remodel and the heels improve much faster.

No making heart bars in 110 degree heat necessary. ;)
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RE:Handmade heartbar 17 Aug 2008 15:28 #25

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Well I considered the point of articulation, 3/8 of an inch behind the true apex of the frog, I went 1/2 inch just to be safe..
In acurately mapping a foot, it is important to locate both the true live frog apex and the widest part of the foot at the sole-wall junction.
I do not see the "live apex"at all in your trim.
I see an overgrown stretched flap covering the true live apex.
The live frog apex is waxy clean, down to the live sole with no visible fissure running around its tip.The true live apex is usually about an inch forward of the widest part of the foot, no more than that in most regular size feet. .
Patty Stiller CNBF,CLS
www.hoofcareonline.com
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RE:Handmade heartbar 17 Aug 2008 19:05 #26

  • Brown Bear
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It is a pleasure to watch a gent make a hand made shoe.Kudos to all that do it
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RE:Handmade heartbar 17 Aug 2008 20:53 #27

Eric , other than fullering that shoe or makeing it out of concave , I think your thinking,fit and finish are on the mark . I've put plenty of heartbars on and have not run into trouble , I was taught to put them on with neutral preassure . The frog plate makes contact but does not push the frog into place .

On that foot with a low verticle depth I would have squared the toe up a bit,side clipped and set the shoe back . On those kind of feet you cann't get a rocker back far enough .

I don't think the angle of your middle picture gives a true picture of how run out and smashed the heels are and why you went with a heartbar .

You lateral picture shows what your dealing with better , my guess is that horse has very weak suspensories and that is causeing the smashed heals and run out toe . a wedge would just compound the force on the heals and nothing would be gained .

Go back in 8 weeks and you'll have some sole to deal with and you can start getting that toe back . More than likely that foot will stay about the same , the thing you need to consider is bar shoes(take your pick) are just another shoe , they don't have to be used when something is broke . We can use them for maintnence before the wreck .

Cheers , Bruce Wright CJF
"I'am not here to argue , at my age I'am into pleasant experiences" ..Mike Savoldi

There are 3 kinds of horses in the world:
The kind you work from,
The kind you eat and
Lawn ornaments ..
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RE:Handmade heartbar 18 Aug 2008 01:48 #28

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does anyone have some pictures that show a frog being "slung" ?
Chris Schaeffner
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RE:Handmade heartbar 18 Aug 2008 03:29 #29

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Rick, Patty, Bruce, thank you for helping with such constructive criticism.
Patty, very thin sole so not much to work with. I have asked quite a few farriers with the experience I believe in to help me with this approach. The foot has fallen through the hoof. Supporting the frog/P3 and the rest of the leg, I am looking to restore concavity to the hoof, allowing the structures to regain their composure and restore this hoof to a healthier state. This may not be your approach but it is one tool in the box I have chosen to take and run with.
Rick I agree with the concept of pulling the nails easier with fullering, right after you drive the nail though is the only time you can pull it out down here in the desert... 6 weeks later you have a nail that is force welded into the shoe and no tool in the world is strong enough to grab and pull it from the shoe. Also, this is not a sore footed horse so pulling the shoe is not an issue.
Bruce, thank you very much for your imput. Just so you know, I tried to make a pair of heart bars from concave... I love working with concave but didn't even come close to completing a shoe after watching the video on youtube demonstrating it. I was prepared to fuller but when the shoe fit where I wanted it to, there was no room for fullering.
Red and Brown, thank you also!
I went back 7 days later to look at the horse to make sure he wasn't sore.
I took hoof testers to every exposed part of that hoof and the horse didn't flinch... bulbs, frog, sole...
Here are some updated pictures in better light and better angles to show you what I was addressing.
Top picture doesn't really show how much I set the shoe back, as I 45'd the hoof wall up in dressing.
Middle picture shows the shoe at an angle
Bottom picture shows the set down bar to show you where the frog was in relation to the heels.
Thank you everyone for being a part in this.
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Eric DeSocio CF
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RE:Handmade heartbar 18 Aug 2008 14:49 #30

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does anyone have some pictures that show a frog being "slung" ?
Just picture a pad, (being flexible), bulging out around a prolapsed frog as it is nailed down onto the foot. Thats a "sling". After a shoeing period, the pad usually comes off the foot flat,(no longer bulged out) and the frog will be up, even with the ground surface of the heels of the foot. And the DIP joint will have better alignment .
But the frog won't stay up there if you apply another shoe and do not continue to support the frog somehow.

BTW if you want to see clearly how the back of the frog helps in aligning the DIP joint just Xray a prolapsed, negative plamer angle foot and then tape a little piece of pad to the very back inch of the frog ( thick enough to extend a 1/8 to 1/4" past the shoe heels) and XRay it again. The DIP will have immediately corrected its broken back alignment anywhere from about 2 to 6 degrees. If your taking hoof balance Xrays anyway, it only takes a couple minutes to do and it is a real eye opener.
Patty Stiller CNBF,CLS
www.hoofcareonline.com
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