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TOPIC: So, What ,About those Toe-Clips??

RE:So, What ,About those Toe-Clips?? 05 Aug 2008 10:35 #121

uncle Rico wrote:
Eric, nice job! I guaranty the people picking this job apart could not come close to the standard you have acheived on this horse. If they think I am wrong, then they should put some pics of their "handy work" up on here. I see them spout off about every pic on here but never see any of their pics.
You dont have flare from the hair line down, Patty must not know that the coronary band sticks out past the wall a little, her straight line is wrong!
Your frog is nice and healthy and you have the break over right at 50% in front of the bridge. This job depicts the exact same arc from the toe to the qaurter, and from the quarter to the heel. That is very difficult to achieve unless you have BALANCED the hoof. The heels of this horse are no where near "contracted", if you drop a straight edge from the toe nail down it goes right through the center of the heel, Perfect! Anybody can set shoes back, not many can trim a distorted foot like that and make a shoe to fit it that well. My hat is off to you, keep up the good work, and dont get discuraged by these arm chair quarter backs. Take a before and after the next time you go to shoe this horse, I know for a fact we will see big time improvement, this foot will tighten right up. I am sick of people thinking that the toe is a bad thing. It is the key stone of the horses foundation, and it need to be supported. End of story. Like I said in the old toe clip thread, "toe clips are not for everybody!" If you dont trim really well and fit really well, stick to unclipped shoes, or get some expert help (expert farrier, not Hoof mapper).
I think the cammera angle should have been a true lateral shot, instead of a slight diagnal. The shiney clip is catching everybodies eye and making them think about the toe too much.
Good Job bud!

Uncle Rico, x-rays will show the toe is too long on this foot and the shoe placement is not even close to 50/50. I can see the dishing in the toe and surprised that someone like you with your artistic ability cannot see this. I will not take away from Eric's ability in the forge or anyone's ability to make shoes, however not getting the toe back and using toe clips is a one way fits all approach to shoeing horses. Making a nice looking shoe, nice toe clip and nice fullering is useless if the distortion in the foot is not dealt with. One method to get the shoe further back would be to dress that toe back and burn the clip deep, I get the feeling Eric would have had to remove a lot of horn to do so. This is where I think setting the shoe back and beveling from underneath is better. The mechanics on this foot is wrong and it looks wrong.
Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:So, What ,About those Toe-Clips?? 05 Aug 2008 10:50 #122

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smitty88 wrote:
Eric,
without having the foot in the hand its always a different story
but i would have taken him back more

i dont like the way the clip is fitted
and the shoe seems to be off a bit on the foot

i think you said in one post if your foot prep is right
fitting toe clips is easy


I'd have to agree. There's always next time! :)
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RE:So, What ,About those Toe-Clips?? 05 Aug 2008 10:56 #123

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calshoer wrote:
Why put toe clips on if it prevents you from getting the breakover back where it would bew if the toe was not so dostorted?

If my goal was to get the breakover a 1/4" in front of p3, I would have done it with or without a toe clip.
And as long as you toe clip this , you won't get that hoof capsule to come back.

Do you want to place some money on it?
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RE:So, What ,About those Toe-Clips?? 05 Aug 2008 11:31 #124

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Smitty, Rico, or anybody who knows- In a competition, would you file the toe back even if its removing everything back to the white line? I'd prefer to get more aggressive with the dressing. What's the judge looking for? As long as I can get a shoe nailed on, it shouldn't matter right?
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RE:So, What ,About those Toe-Clips?? 05 Aug 2008 12:56 #125

Eric from what I have seen just as an observer at competitions and certification the goal is to dress the toe back and burn the clip deep. I have seen this done as a two man operation to get a deep burn. I do not know if their is any consideration as to hoof wall thickness or if this will cause any harm as in compromising the integrity of the hoof capsule. Years ago I was taught that it is okay to dress the toe back until you reach the white pigment. Today I am not sure if this is harmful or not. One thing that concerns me is the radiographs Gene has taken before and after doing using this method of getting the toe back and seeing evidence of mild rotation. It depends on the feet, strength and weakness of other structures. I see no harm in setting the shoe back to where you would dress the toe and just beveling from underneath and maintaining the integrity of the hoof capsule.

Just my 2 cents worth. :)
Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:So, What ,About those Toe-Clips?? 05 Aug 2008 13:49 #126

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If my goal was to get the breakover a 1/4" in front of p3, I would have done it with or without a toe clip.
Why would your goal be to set the breakover more forward than where it would be (1/4") if the foot were free of the dostortion?
Patty Stiller CNBF,CLS
www.hoofcareonline.com
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RE:So, What ,About those Toe-Clips?? 05 Aug 2008 13:57 #127

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Today I am not sure if this is harmful or not. One thing that concerns me is the radiographs Gene has taken before and after doing using this method of getting the toe back and seeing evidence of mild rotation.
Gene has never to my knowledge noted nor seen on radiographs that dressing toe flare until you just see white at the very bottom causes bone rotation or movement. Nor have I. Ever.
So which Xrays or from what lecture are you talking about? The thing we *have* found that will cause rotation is over trimming the *sole*, taking the sole callus out. If you do that, the bone can drop some and the toe begins to drift forward, creating the kind of foot Eric had to deal with.
Patty Stiller CNBF,CLS
www.hoofcareonline.com
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RE:So, What ,About those Toe-Clips?? 05 Aug 2008 14:01 #128

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Quote:
And as long as you toe clip this , you won't get that hoof capsule to come back.

Do you want to place some money on it?
Sure. you document this foot over the next year, every shoeing to show that you are using toe clips every time , and we will see where that toe is at the end.
Now if you were to quit the toe clips for even one shoeing set that shoe back under where it should be and rocker the overhanging wall, the problem would go away. So don't cheat and do it right just once when we are not looking. ;)
Patty Stiller CNBF,CLS
www.hoofcareonline.com
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RE:So, What ,About those Toe-Clips?? 05 Aug 2008 14:13 #129

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You dont have flare from the hair line down, Patty must not know that the coronary band sticks out past the wall a little, her straight line is wrong!
My line is not straight! It has a little dish just below the hairline, which was my point.
A coronary band that sticks out past the top of the wall is distorted.
In a totally non-distorted hoof, the coronary band does NOT stick out past the hoofwall. There would be no little dip below it and the line would be perectly straight from the last hair down.
The small steeper area of hoofwall (about a half inch) just below the coronary band on this foot is the indiciator of the true angle of P3 inside that foot. The wall IS flared from that little dip down.
That is one of the principles I have learned after many years of fitting to stretched toes that looked "normal" but were not. I have seen it proven many times with radiographs on so many of my own clients and horses at clinics around the country.
It is one of the things that makes the principles I use different from those that you use, and why I rarely fit to the perimeter.
Patty Stiller CNBF,CLS
www.hoofcareonline.com
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RE:So, What ,About those Toe-Clips?? 05 Aug 2008 18:38 #130

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Eric Russell wrote:
Smitty, Rico, or anybody who knows- In a competition, would you file the toe back even if its removing everything back to the white line? I'd prefer to get more aggressive with the dressing. What's the judge looking for? As long as I can get a shoe nailed on, it shouldn't matter right?


i would have marked you down in a competition and on the road

once the prep is iffy the job goes down hill
even with a nice shoe
Smitty88
John Mc Loughlin
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RE:So, What ,About those Toe-Clips?? 05 Aug 2008 20:15 #131

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calshoer wrote:
Sure. you document this foot over the next year, every shoeing to show that you are using toe clips every time , and we will see where that toe is at the end.

I'll document it for as long as I can. If he goes to Florida, I'm not gonna travel just to make a point. ;)
Now if you were to quit the toe clips for even one shoeing set that shoe back under where it should be and rocker the overhanging wall, the problem would go away.

What problem would that be?
So don't cheat and do it right just once when we are not looking.

I don't really understand though, if NB shoes are only set back to where the undistorted foot would be, what's it matter if there is a toe clip or not. I guess we'll find out. And then you can tell everybody on here that a correctly applied toe clip is A OK! :)
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RE:So, What ,About those Toe-Clips?? 05 Aug 2008 20:19 #132

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Here is the deal that I think you guys are missing.
This pic is shot diagnaly, it is not a true lat. You cant really see the plane of the center of the toe. But i put a straight edge to the medial toe and it is as straight as can be! I think everybody is so used to seeing dubbed toes that a straight plane just looks long. I have had people tell me that they thought my toes where too long, so next shoeing I trimmed the foot the same and reset the same shoe with the same fit, but instead of dressing the toe straight rolled off the bottom third. This solved the problem and all it did was create an optical illusion.
This foot does look kind of long, but that is not a bad thing. The horse will be reshod in 5 weeks, that is not a long time, Eric shod this horse for the first time so he had a lot of damage controll to do, like bringing the toe back and dealing with medial lateral , and AP issues, being the first time he has no idea how much hoof this horse will grow in 5 weeks. He played it smart by getting as close to a straight dorsal wall as possible without going through to the white line. He also left some vertical depth, this will pay big dividens in 5 weeks. The hoof will be will be stronger and he will have less work to do in prep. This is not just my opinion, but that of some of the greatest farriers in the world. You cant do it all in the first shoeing, but you can set your self up for sucess in future shoeings by not over doing it the first go around.
I am not saying the whole job is perfect, but it is very safe and it will get the hooves in better shape. We all get hung up on different aspects of the job> I have been hung up on setting shoes back because I thought toes where too long. I have been hung up on stacking heel, I have been hung up on T sqauring, sole planing, even wall thickness, acrylic rebuild, pattern shoeing, and tons of other tangents. Everything is fine in moderation, you cant just use one method, they all have there place with different conformations and problems.
I think now more than ever we are concerned with the toe being too long. I think we have gone to the other extreme by getting toes too short and shoes too far back, remember balance is equal opposing forces, if we get the toe too far back that is an imbalance. I see too much of this imbalance now a days.
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RE:So, What ,About those Toe-Clips?? 05 Aug 2008 22:47 #133

Can I get an amen. cool post.
Jason
"Always listen to the experts. They tell you what can't be done, and why. Then do it." Robert Heinlien
Jason Maki CJF, RJF
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RE:So, What ,About those Toe-Clips?? 05 Aug 2008 23:28 #134

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AMEN! Well said.
"As I see it, winners get the money - while losers talk of "individual goals" and similar stuff." Tom Stovall
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RE:So, What ,About those Toe-Clips?? 05 Aug 2008 23:31 #135

uncle Rico wrote:
Here is the deal that I think you guys are missing.
This pic is shot diagnaly, it is not a true lat. You cant really see the plane of the center of the toe. But i put a straight edge to the medial toe and it is as straight as can be! I think everybody is so used to seeing dubbed toes that a straight plane just looks long. I have had people tell me that they thought my toes where too long, so next shoeing I trimmed the foot the same and reset the same shoe with the same fit, but instead of dressing the toe straight rolled off the bottom third. This solved the problem and all it did was create an optical illusion.
This foot does look kind of long, but that is not a bad thing. The horse will be reshod in 5 weeks, that is not a long time, Eric shod this horse for the first time so he had a lot of damage controll to do, like bringing the toe back and dealing with medial lateral , and AP issues, being the first time he has no idea how much hoof this horse will grow in 5 weeks. He played it smart by getting as close to a straight dorsal wall as possible without going through to the white line. He also left some vertical depth, this will pay big dividens in 5 weeks. The hoof will be will be stronger and he will have less work to do in prep. This is not just my opinion, but that of some of the greatest farriers in the world. You cant do it all in the first shoeing, but you can set your self up for sucess in future shoeings by not over doing it the first go around.
I am not saying the whole job is perfect, but it is very safe and it will get the hooves in better shape. We all get hung up on different aspects of the job> I have been hung up on setting shoes back because I thought toes where too long. I have been hung up on stacking heel, I have been hung up on T sqauring, sole planing, even wall thickness, acrylic rebuild, pattern shoeing, and tons of other tangents. Everything is fine in moderation, you cant just use one method, they all have there place with different conformations and problems.
I think now more than ever we are concerned with the toe being too long. I think we have gone to the other extreme by getting toes too short and shoes too far back, remember balance is equal opposing forces, if we get the toe too far back that is an imbalance. I see too much of this imbalance now a days.


I think your missing a very important point and are too closed minded to even think about what others are trying to say.
Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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