uncle Rico wrote:
Uncle Rico, x-rays will show the toe is too long on this foot and the shoe placement is not even close to 50/50. I can see the dishing in the toe and surprised that someone like you with your artistic ability cannot see this. I will not take away from Eric's ability in the forge or anyone's ability to make shoes, however not getting the toe back and using toe clips is a one way fits all approach to shoeing horses. Making a nice looking shoe, nice toe clip and nice fullering is useless if the distortion in the foot is not dealt with. One method to get the shoe further back would be to dress that toe back and burn the clip deep, I get the feeling Eric would have had to remove a lot of horn to do so. This is where I think setting the shoe back and beveling from underneath is better. The mechanics on this foot is wrong and it looks wrong.

Smitty, Rico, or anybody who knows- In a competition, would you file the toe back even if its removing everything back to the white line? I'd prefer to get more aggressive with the dressing. What's the judge looking for? As long as I can get a shoe nailed on, it shouldn't matter right?

Eric from what I have seen just as an observer at competitions and certification the goal is to dress the toe back and burn the clip deep. I have seen this done as a two man operation to get a deep burn. I do not know if their is any consideration as to hoof wall thickness or if this will cause any harm as in compromising the integrity of the hoof capsule. Years ago I was taught that it is okay to dress the toe back until you reach the white pigment. Today I am not sure if this is harmful or not. One thing that concerns me is the radiographs Gene has taken before and after doing using this method of getting the toe back and seeing evidence of mild rotation. It depends on the feet, strength and weakness of other structures. I see no harm in setting the shoe back to where you would dress the toe and just beveling from underneath and maintaining the integrity of the hoof capsule.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Why would your goal be to set the breakover more forward than where it would be (1/4") if the foot were free of the dostortion?

Gene has never to my knowledge noted nor seen on radiographs that dressing toe flare until you just see white at the very bottom causes bone rotation or movement. Nor have I. Ever.
So which Xrays or from what lecture are you talking about? The thing we *have* found that will cause rotation is over trimming the *sole*, taking the sole callus out. If you do that, the bone can drop some and the toe begins to drift forward, creating the kind of foot Eric had to deal with.

Sure. you document this foot over the next year, every shoeing to show that you are using toe clips every time , and we will see where that toe is at the end.
Now if you were to quit the toe clips for even one shoeing set that shoe back under where it should be and rocker the overhanging wall, the problem would go away. So don't cheat and do it right just once when we are not looking.

My line is not straight! It has a little dish just below the hairline, which was my point.
A coronary band that sticks out past the top of the wall is distorted.
In a totally non-distorted hoof, the coronary band does NOT stick out past the hoofwall. There would be no little dip below it and the line would be perectly straight from the last hair down.
The small steeper area of hoofwall (about a half inch) just below the coronary band on this foot is the indiciator of the true angle of P3 inside that foot. The wall IS flared from that little dip down.
That is one of the principles I have learned after many years of fitting to stretched toes that looked "normal" but were not. I have seen it proven many times with radiographs on so many of my own clients and horses at clinics around the country.
It is one of the things that makes the principles I use different from those that you use, and why I rarely fit to the perimeter.

Eric Russell wrote:

i would have marked you down in a competition and on the road

once the prep is iffy the job goes down hill
even with a nice shoe

Here is the deal that I think you guys are missing.
This pic is shot diagnaly, it is not a true lat. You cant really see the plane of the center of the toe. But i put a straight edge to the medial toe and it is as straight as can be! I think everybody is so used to seeing dubbed toes that a straight plane just looks long. I have had people tell me that they thought my toes where too long, so next shoeing I trimmed the foot the same and reset the same shoe with the same fit, but instead of dressing the toe straight rolled off the bottom third. This solved the problem and all it did was create an optical illusion.
This foot does look kind of long, but that is not a bad thing. The horse will be reshod in 5 weeks, that is not a long time, Eric shod this horse for the first time so he had a lot of damage controll to do, like bringing the toe back and dealing with medial lateral , and AP issues, being the first time he has no idea how much hoof this horse will grow in 5 weeks. He played it smart by getting as close to a straight dorsal wall as possible without going through to the white line. He also left some vertical depth, this will pay big dividens in 5 weeks. The hoof will be will be stronger and he will have less work to do in prep. This is not just my opinion, but that of some of the greatest farriers in the world. You cant do it all in the first shoeing, but you can set your self up for sucess in future shoeings by not over doing it the first go around.
I am not saying the whole job is perfect, but it is very safe and it will get the hooves in better shape. We all get hung up on different aspects of the job> I have been hung up on setting shoes back because I thought toes where too long. I have been hung up on stacking heel, I have been hung up on T sqauring, sole planing, even wall thickness, acrylic rebuild, pattern shoeing, and tons of other tangents. Everything is fine in moderation, you cant just use one method, they all have there place with different conformations and problems.
I think now more than ever we are concerned with the toe being too long. I think we have gone to the other extreme by getting toes too short and shoes too far back, remember balance is equal opposing forces, if we get the toe too far back that is an imbalance. I see too much of this imbalance now a days.

Can I get an amen. cool post.
Jason

AMEN! Well said.

uncle Rico wrote:

I think your missing a very important point and are too closed minded to even think about what others are trying to say.