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TOPIC: Toe Clips

RE:Toe Clips 02 Jul 2008 01:33 #196

  • Jaye Perry
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calshoer;-EVERY components designed into of those NB shoes is there for very specific reasons , its not just about toe breakover.

.....

Ok answer me this:

Why can a person who has farrieried a horse and has the foot in symetry and the farrier cannot depress the sole with thumb pressure . Then on the same symmetrically farrieried feet a NBS shoe can be applied and 10 minutes after the application(per proper protocal techniques described in booklets and DVDS) one can depress the sole with their thumb????


Theory: a symmetrical foot put into distress will deform and produce prejiduice sole. Mistakenly called the sole callous. The anterior "arch" or vertical depth has been disrupted by "boxing" or cutting off the contration of the toe wall during the breakover phase of the stride.:)
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RE:Toe Clips 02 Jul 2008 01:40 #197

calshoer wrote:
Most important that gets missed in modified or handmade NB type fits would be combining the width of the web, and the steep inner rim (for traction) with the same amount of breakover all the way around the foot. As wel it is a lot of work to duplicate the very broad, deep sole relief from stock, and still get the rest of the package.
Achieving the breakover all around the branches of the shoe AND creating the steep inner edge that is there for traction is quite a trick..I haven't seen anyone duplicate it yet in a handmade or a modified "other brand" of shoe. You can get probably duplicate SOME of the components of a NB shoe in a handmade or a modified shoe , but it would be extrememy difficult to get them in one shoe all together.

EVERY components designed into of those NB shoes is there for very specific reasons , its not just about toe breakover.

For instance you could use a 3/4" half round stock, bump the toe (I would sure like to see most farriers be able to do that with half round :eek:), broaden the toe, draw the toe back a little to lessen the steepness of the toe breakover,and add the sole relief, but then you have missed the steep inner edge, and the crease.
Sure SOMEONE could probably manage to encorporate it all in one handmade shoe, but gee whiz..WHY? its far more economical and easy to just buy the thing if you want all those features, which I usually do.

Actually can all be done with concave and a pair modded up in 15 min.( I'm slow too)Knit the toe shut, roll it out, seat it out and go to the grinder and take the outer rim off. I feel I can get better m/l breakover and put the rolled toe where I want it for limb deviations plus a rocker if I like. About half the cost of a NB shoe and still have all the traction.
:D
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RE:Toe Clips 02 Jul 2008 02:05 #198

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Ok answer me this:

Why can a person who has farrieried a horse and has the foot in symetry and the farrier cannot depress the sole with thumb pressure . Then on the same symmetrically farrieried feet a NBS shoe can be applied and 10 minutes after the application(per proper protocal techniques described in booklets and DVDS) one can depress the sole with their thumb????
I have never experienced that phenomenon. In 13 years using NB. If you have, you got me. ?
Patty Stiller CNBF,CLS
www.hoofcareonline.com
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RE:Toe Clips 02 Jul 2008 02:14 #199

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Actually can all be done with concave and a pair modded up in 15 min.( I'm slow too)Knit the toe shut, roll it out, seat it out and go to the grinder and take the outer rim off. I feel I can get better m/l breakover and put the rolled toe where I want it for limb deviations plus a rocker if I like. About half the cost of a NB shoe and still have all the traction.
Well first there may be TOO much traction coming INTO the ground with concave compared to NB. The well-rolled outer edge of the NB helps the foot ease into the ground with not as much "grab". The steep INNER edge helps it get traction to move forward.
Medial lateral breakover design on concave is not the same as with a wide half round or an NB shoe.
The concave is more steep, and the outer edge of the ground surface will not be quite as far under the foot as a 3/4" half round or a NB.
As well, what about the extra wide sole relief area of the NB , specifically designed to cover while not touching the sole to better protect the solar margin of the coffin bone?
Are you going to bump the concave toe up THAT much to get that nearly 1-1/4" width?
Heck, If you can actually do that, I would sure like to see it.
Go for it . Post it here when you are done ,and let us know how long it took and if it was really worth the time. Its great if you can, but most farriers can't do it anyway.
Patty Stiller CNBF,CLS
www.hoofcareonline.com
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RE:Toe Clips 02 Jul 2008 02:26 #200

  • Gary Hill
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OldLineStateForge wrote:
Actually can all be done with concave and a pair modded up in 15 min.( I'm slow too)Knit the toe shut, roll it out, seat it out and go to the grinder and take the outer rim off. I feel I can get better m/l breakover and put the rolled toe where I want it for limb deviations plus a rocker if I like. About half the cost of a NB shoe and still have all the traction.
:D

Why not just use a rim shoe?:confused:
"As I see it, winners get the money - while losers talk of "individual goals" and similar stuff." Tom Stovall
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RE:Toe Clips 02 Jul 2008 02:30 #201

calshoer wrote:
Well first there may be TOO much traction coming INTO the ground with concave compared to NB.

What do you mean " coming in" and how's that matter with heel first landing?

The well-rolled outer edge of the NB helps the foot ease into the ground with not as much "grab". The steep INNER edge helps it get traction to move forward.

Traction to move forward ? are we talking fronts or hinds ?

Medial lateral breakover design on concave is not the same as with a wide half round or an NB shoe.

Right, it's better

The concave is more steep, and the outer edge of the ground surface will not be quite as far under the foot as a 3/4" half round or a NB.

Remember the grinder ? Don't forget I can bend it " inside out" as well.

As well, what about the extra wide sole relief area of the NB , specifically designed to cover while not touching the sole to better protect the solar margin of the coffin bone?

No problem, hammer and heat.

Are you going to bump the concave toe up THAT much to get that nearly 1-1/4" width?

I don't bump ( old english thing, we have modern steel not iron)and I never measured it but am sure I can get around 1 inch after knitting and rolling.

Heck, If you can actually do that, I would sure like to see it.
Go for it . Post it here when you are done ,and let us know how long it took and if it was really worth the time. Its great if you can, but most farriers can't do it anyway.

I leave for the lake with the family tomorrow. I'll do it when I get back, late next week.
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RE:Toe Clips 02 Jul 2008 02:32 #202

Gary Hill wrote:
Why not just use a rim shoe?:confused:

Could.Lots of kegs could me modded up.
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RE:Toe Clips 03 Jul 2008 01:23 #203

calshoer wrote:
Not everyone takes pictures of their work from a decade ago, especially before digital cameras were in vogue that much.
As to my implying that I was a journeyman, I NEVER, EVER said that. You need to read for context. Read how the sentence was worded. I said that besides myself, there are also journeymen (meaning *they*were the journeymen) who apply NB regularly, so the point was that NB is not limited to poorlyskilled farriers , which WAS the implication ,wasn't it?

As to your definition if "skilled" ,am I mistaken that your definition of highly skilled is refering to skill level in *forging* ?

MY definition of highly skilled is probably different than yours.
Mine is someone who recognizes and understand ALL the functional anatomy and biomechanical aspects of the hoof, recognizes subtle hoof distortions, sees subtle lameness before it becomes obviously clinical, and can consistantly remedy problems and achieve clinical results . One who in the process of all that, does not lose many shoes while correcting and prevent hoof distortions, and assisting horses to do their job better. Thats a LOT of necessary skills.

If you noticed, that all does not include having to be terrific in the forge. That is absolutely NOT necessary in todays world to achieve these goal.

Combine all that with great forging and it's an added pretty touch, but frankly it is nearly IMPOSSIBLE (and probably really impossible) to achieve a few of the necessary biomechanical tratment goals with a hand forged shoe. Like it or not, thats the truth. Some Factory shoes have many features you simply can not duplicate very well in a hand made shoe. (and I am not refering just to NB! )

MY expert skills lie in a combination of my high level of KNOWLEDGE, and practical skills in applying just many combinations of shoes and modern materials successfully to consistently achieve clinical success.
Its a different KIND of expert skill.
Patty, I dissagree, I think that there is more to farriery than recognizing hoof-capsule ,distortion. I do not ever want to get to the point where i quit learning and be close-minded, to other facets of our profession, and Forging , deffinatley is a part of our trade. Learning to properly fit toe clips, or any clip,for that matter,Is one of those skills. To hear you say that forging is not important , frankly makes me want to puke! NB is a great avenue for people to get some good information, but in my opinion , it is not the end-all of farriery. If you can pass your CJF and can tell me honestly that you did not learn 1 thing from it, I Jake Whitman, Will pay all of your lost expences !! And i mean that. and with your self-proclaimed Expert -Skills it shouldn't be a big deal.
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RE:Toe Clips 03 Jul 2008 01:46 #204

  • Jaye Perry
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Jake Whitman;....... If you can pass your CJF and can tell me honestly that you did not learn 1 thing from it, I Jake Whitman, Will pay all of your lost expences !! And i mean that. and with your self-proclaimed Expert -Skills it shouldn't be a big deal.


Easy there Jakey, that's a lot of "Camp" horses:rolleyes::rolleyes:
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RE:Toe Clips 03 Jul 2008 02:10 #205

Jaye Perry wrote:
Easy there Jakey, that's a lot of "Camp" horses:rolleyes::rolleyes:
Can't honestly say i know what "Camp" horses are ??? And how they would be involved??
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RE:Toe Clips 03 Jul 2008 02:13 #206

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Jake Whitman wrote:
Can't honestly say i know what "Camp" horses are ??? And how they would be involved??

Talk to Mr. Holder!:cool:
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RE:Toe Clips 03 Jul 2008 02:16 #207

I have heard that one before, Why do i need to go to Jeff to find out what the heck you're talking about?? Seems kind of silly to me. If i have something to say to someone, it is between that person, and I, not a third ,party.
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RE:Toe Clips 03 Jul 2008 02:19 #208

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Jake Whitman wrote:
I have heard that one before, Why do i need to go to Jeff to find out what the heck you're talking about?? Seems kind of silly to me.

Your silly to propose a wager on the basis that you pay a wage fro a month to a person whom you do not know or have even seen the paper work on their monthly gross income.

Your not thinking!!!:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: Or a Trust Fund baby!
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RE:Toe Clips 03 Jul 2008 02:26 #209

Jaye Perry wrote:
Your silly to propose a wager on the basis that you pay a wage fro a month to a person whom you do not know or have even seen the paper work on their monthly gross income.

Your not thinming!!!:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: Or a Trust Fund baby!
Same offer to you - old- chap, If you can pass it, and honestly tell me, and everyone on this forum, that you did not learn one thing from it , I would pay your expences too.. That's how much i believe in the process. I am a man of my word--Prove Me Wrong-- I Dare You!!!!! Jake Whitman
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RE:Toe Clips 03 Jul 2008 02:30 #210

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Patty, I dissagree, I think that there is more to farriery than recognizing hoof-capsule ,distortion.
Well I absolutely agree.Regognizing hoof distortion is just one small part of good farriery.
I do not ever want to get to the point where i quit learning and be close-minded, to other facets of our profession,
same here. I continue to learn, every day and at every continuing educational venue I attend.
and Forging , deffinatley is a part of our trade. Learning to properly fit toe clips, or any clip,for that matter,Is one of those skills.
Again Agree ! In fact clips (quarter clips, not toe clips ) are a required component of NB certification tests.
To hear you say that forging is not important , frankly makes me want to puke!
Well then go get your bucket . :eek: Read for context. I have never said that ALL forging was not necessary! I have basically said the LEVEL of forging that some people think necessary to be a good farrier just isn't all that necessary anymore, and that HANDMADES are certainly not necessary, and that toe clips are not nemechanically correct for most situations. "MOST"...... Read it.
NB is a great avenue for people to get some good information, but in my opinion , it is not the end-all of farriery.
No one, including Gene has *ever* said it is the end all But is a huge step from what we have been doing the last 300 years.
If you can pass your CJF and can tell me honestly that you did not learn 1 thing from it, I Jake Whitman, Will pay all of your lost expences !!
Frankly I know what the CJF test invloves, seen it, studied the materials, and at this stage of my career I have exactly *nothing* to learn fron the CJF test, especially knowledge and including forging. I don't find any need for any part of it.
.
and with your self-proclaimed Expert -Skills it lt shoudn't be a big deal.
As I said, my expert skills lie in different area of expertise than in journeyman level forging. Dont need that , dont want it.
We are talking the apples and oranges of expertise here. Now you can go puke. :D
Patty Stiller CNBF,CLS
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