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TOPIC: Toe Clips

RE:Toe Clips 01 Jul 2008 06:05 #181

Cyber Farrier wrote:
As the Moderator, I was simply complimenting you on helping to maintain a high level of discourse. Take a compliment when it's given. :D

Baron
Is that Really a compliment? What do you think about it??
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RE:Toe Clips 01 Jul 2008 06:13 #182

  • Cyber Farrier
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Yes, really, it's a compliment. Truly. Why would you think any differently?

And now, back to the toipc of the thread.....

Baron
“Suppose you were an ******. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself.”
- Mark Twain

“There is no distinctly native American criminal class... save Congress.”
-Mark Twain

“No man's life, liberty, or property is safe...
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RE:Toe Clips 01 Jul 2008 11:32 #183

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calshoer wrote:
NO, It DOES NOT. Where on earth did you get that idea? Just LOOK at it....:eek:

Your continued staements about NB shoeing and the shoes themselves is revealing that you have some amount of ignorance about Natural balance protocols and shoe design. I suggest you study the protocol in more depth ,ask questions if there is something you don't understand,(rather than make ignorant and false statements) then when you more fully understand it, come back and we can discuss it.

Are you really gonna make me get my chop saw out? There is more surface are in the front half of a NB shoe. It takes more metal to make up the toe and toe quarters of the shoe than it takes to make up the heel and heel quarters.

If you don't understand this very very simple idea, let me know. I'll get the camera out! How's it go, geesh?!
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RE:Toe Clips 01 Jul 2008 11:35 #184

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calshoer wrote:
Here is the outline (green line) of a standard aluminum NB shoe placed overlaid on the drawing of a european contest front hunter shoe . Where exactly is the NB shoe badly shaped? :confused:

table shoe vs. shoe on the foot. NB looks really cool (table shoe)
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RE:Toe Clips 01 Jul 2008 11:42 #185

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calshoer wrote:
I also measured a size 1 aluminum, NB shoe, and from the widest part to the toe EDGE it is 2 5/8", from the same line back to the heels it was also 2 5/8Exactly 50-50. Then figure in the rolled toe and you get less ground surface in front.
To be Set around Ducketts bridge, roughly the COA. What problem do you have with that ?

The only thing I have a problem with is you measuring surface area of a foot the way you do. I'm not sure how to do it, its probably something like L x W x H. Not sure, just sure your doing it wrong just to try to prove a NB point.

AS for the various world wide studies concerning the various stresses in the footand the relationship to breakover placement , there are so many and I have cited them many times here over they years and will not do it again.
Go find them yourself, Mr Todd anonymous. They are here somewhere.

Your attitude is deplorable. The name is Todd Swanks in case you missed it in another post.
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RE:Toe Clips 01 Jul 2008 11:44 #186

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calshoer wrote:
My clients and the vets I work with are the real life judge of my skill level.

I always suggest having someone from another profession evaluate my skill level.:rolleyes:
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RE:Toe Clips 01 Jul 2008 11:53 #187

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Cyber Farrier wrote:
You are correct. If you're gonna discuss stuff with Patty, you need to back it up. Just "sayin' so" doesn't cut the mustard. She provides information, diagrams and facts. (Not saying they're right or wrong.) You want to dispute her stuff, come up with other facts.

Maybe someone with better math skills than myself can explain to patty how to figure out the surface area of a foot. When Patty discusses "skill" she should have to back it up. She fit toe clips for years, but refuses to back up her claim. Baron, maybe you can find a way to cut down on Patty's false claims she comes up with.

Irrelevant gibberish like, "You can't judge your work, or your mother..." has no place on the forums.

I thought that was a great point. We all think we're doing great work until others judge it. Vets and horseowners arent very good judges of a farriers skill level either.
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RE:Toe Clips 01 Jul 2008 12:33 #188

  • Rick Burten
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Traditional Farrier wrote:

The only thing I have a problem with is you measuring surface area of a foot the way you do. I'm not sure how to do it, its probably something like L x W x H. Not sure, just sure your doing it wrong just to try to prove a NB point.

Please explain how you would correctly measure the surface area of a foot, and why. Diagrams would also be helpful.
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
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RE:Toe Clips 01 Jul 2008 16:40 #189

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Are you really gonna make me get my chop saw out? There is more surface are in the front half of a NB shoe. It takes more metal to make up the toe and toe quarters of the shoe than it takes to make up the heel and heel quarters.
Ithought we were talking about RATIOS around the COA, not shoe width.
If you take a NB shoe, draw a line (or cut it if you want to ruin a perfectly good shoe) across at EXACTLY the widest part, (use calipers to find it accurately) and measure the *distance* of the two pieces from the line forward to end of the toe, and from line rearward to a line across the end of heels, you will find that the two halves are the same.Then figure in the rolled toe, which moves the forwardmost point of ground contact (breakover point) rearward, and there is ALWAYS LESS ground surface in the FRONT. THAT is what I am talking about, the ground RATIOS around the COA and how they apply to leverage and support.
If by "more metal" you are taking about the sole relief area and shoe weight, then you have totally changed the subject.
Patty Stiller CNBF,CLS
www.hoofcareonline.com
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RE:Toe Clips 01 Jul 2008 17:14 #190

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Not everyone takes pictures of their work from a decade ago, especially before digital cameras were in vogue that much.
As to my implying that I was a journeyman, I NEVER, EVER said that. You need to read for context. Read how the sentence was worded. I said that besides myself, there are also journeymen (meaning *they*were the journeymen) who apply NB regularly, so the point was that NB is not limited to poorlyskilled farriers , which WAS the implication ,wasn't it?

As to your definition if "skilled" ,am I mistaken that your definition of highly skilled is refering to skill level in *forging* ?

MY definition of highly skilled is probably different than yours.
Mine is someone who recognizes and understand ALL the functional anatomy and biomechanical aspects of the hoof, recognizes subtle hoof distortions, sees subtle lameness before it becomes obviously clinical, and can consistantly remedy problems and achieve clinical results . One who in the process of all that, does not lose many shoes while correcting and prevent hoof distortions, and assisting horses to do their job better. Thats a LOT of necessary skills.

If you noticed, that all does not include having to be terrific in the forge. That is absolutely NOT necessary in todays world to achieve these goal.

Combine all that with great forging and it's an added pretty touch, but frankly it is nearly IMPOSSIBLE (and probably really impossible) to achieve a few of the necessary biomechanical tratment goals with a hand forged shoe. Like it or not, thats the truth. Some Factory shoes have many features you simply can not duplicate very well in a hand made shoe. (and I am not refering just to NB! )

MY expert skills lie in a combination of my high level of KNOWLEDGE, and practical skills in applying just many combinations of shoes and modern materials successfully to consistently achieve clinical success.
Its a different KIND of expert skill.
Patty Stiller CNBF,CLS
www.hoofcareonline.com
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RE:Toe Clips 02 Jul 2008 00:24 #191

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What "features" do factory shoes have that could not be duplicated?
Time is a great teacher, but unfortunately it kills all its pupils. Louis Hector Berlioz

Troy Ehrmantraut, CJF
2002 Journeyman Practical High Score Award.
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RE:Toe Clips 02 Jul 2008 00:43 #192

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Most important that gets missed in modified or handmade NB type fits would be combining the width of the web, and the steep inner rim (for traction) with the same amount of breakover all the way around the foot. As wel it is a lot of work to duplicate the very broad, deep sole relief from stock, and still get the rest of the package.
Achieving the breakover all around the branches of the shoe AND creating the steep inner edge that is there for traction is quite a trick..I haven't seen anyone duplicate it yet in a handmade or a modified "other brand" of shoe. You can get probably duplicate SOME of the components of a NB shoe in a handmade or a modified shoe , but it would be extrememy difficult to get them in one shoe all together.

EVERY components designed into of those NB shoes is there for very specific reasons , its not just about toe breakover.

For instance you could use a 3/4" half round stock, bump the toe (I would sure like to see most farriers be able to do that with half round :eek:), broaden the toe, draw the toe back a little to lessen the steepness of the toe breakover,and add the sole relief, but then you have missed the steep inner edge, and the crease.
Sure SOMEONE could probably manage to encorporate it all in one handmade shoe, but gee whiz..WHY? its far more economical and easy to just buy the thing if you want all those features, which I usually do.
Patty Stiller CNBF,CLS
www.hoofcareonline.com
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RE:Toe Clips 02 Jul 2008 01:25 #193

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Methinks Phil is much smarter than we thought. He stirs up a great thread AND gets a free hands on clinic with Craig:D
All this over a little toe clip, Cool!
Jim
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RE:Toe Clips 02 Jul 2008 01:29 #194

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Gee whiz Patty. Someone probably could incorporate all that in a handmade shoe. Should of made that statement from the start.
Time is a great teacher, but unfortunately it kills all its pupils. Louis Hector Berlioz

Troy Ehrmantraut, CJF
2002 Journeyman Practical High Score Award.
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RE:Toe Clips 02 Jul 2008 01:32 #195

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clinkercjf wrote:
Gee whiz Patty. Someone probably could incorporate all that in a handmade shoe. Should of made that statement from the start.

Do you have any pics of similar handmades that you've done? Thats quite a bit to incorporate into a shoe.
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