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TOPIC: Hungry

RE:Hungry 02 Sep 2006 18:02 #16

  • George Geist
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Dave,
It can be argued that a first year apprentice may not be good for much. However I dont believe it will take an entire year for them to become useful.

Matter of fact I dare say that in as little as a few days to a weeks time both parties should know if the arrangement is going to work out or not.
George
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RE:Hungry 08 Sep 2006 04:03 #17

This is an interesting post to me and I just wanted to point out how lucky so many of you are. I went to school for two months in February, came back and tried DESPERATELY to find anyone that I could apprentice with. After calling and emailing about a hundred people, one called me back. I followed him for one day and learned a lot. He did actually pay me, after I insisted that he shouldn't, on the basis that he was always payed a portion of what the person he apprenticed for made. I told him to call me if I could ever ride with him again... he didn't. Since then I have been too busy (and somewhat discouraged) to search anymore for an apprentice. I do ride with my vet occasionally, but that is a little different.

My question for you is this. I work two jobs (farrier and at a restaurant) to pay for my equipment and farrier stuff and school. I am trying to put myself through vet school. I work about 60-70 hours a week and own two horses and am taking some pretty tough college classes. I want nothing more than to learn all I can about shoeing and trimming correctly. However, not only can I not find anyone, but I simply cannot afford to work for free.

I understand what you are saying, but from everything I have seen farriers make pretty good money. If your apprentice doesn't help at all, he shouldn't be paid. But if he is doing his job, why shouldn't he be accomidated?
Julie Mills
Complete Equine Farrier Services

Phillipians 4:13
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RE:Hungry 08 Sep 2006 09:52 #18

  • Jaye Perry
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Complete Equine-This is an interesting post to me and I just wanted to point out how lucky so many of you are.
Luck is when opportunity has met preparation.





I went to school for two months in February, came back and tried DESPERATELY to find anyone that I could apprentice with. After calling and emailing about a hundred people, one called me back. I followed him for one day and learned a lot. He did actually pay me, after I insisted that he shouldn't, on the basis that he was always payed a portion of what the person he apprenticed for made. I told him to call me if I could ever ride with him again... he didn't.
Should have called another 100 people. Why would the person call you, you should have called him; over and over and over again- goes back to being "Hungry"

Since then I have been too busy (and somewhat discouraged) to search anymore for an apprentice. I do ride with my vet occasionally, but that is a little different.
Depends on what you want. Do you want to be a 'Jack of all trades and master of none?'



My question for you is this. I work two jobs (farrier and at a restaurant) to pay for my equipment and farrier stuff and school. I am trying to put myself through vet school. I work about 60-70 hours a week and own two horses and am taking some pretty tough college classes. I want nothing more than to learn all I can about shoeing and trimming correctly. However, not only can I not find anyone, but I simply cannot afford to work for free.
See previous reply.
Nothing is free. 2 months of shoeing school experience is worthless to an established farrier with a string of clients/horses. The established farrier spends more time / money re-training the student and or breaking bad habits formed by the student's flivorous tutional adventure.


I understand what you are saying, but from everything I have seen farriers make pretty good money
Farriers turn "pretty good money". making/profiting and turning/grossing are two different things. Your comments show another lack of expeirence in one aspect of farriery; business.



If your apprentice doesn't help at all, he shouldn't be paid. But if he is doing his job, why shouldn't he be accomidated?
Depends on the commensurate experiences. IMO, out of school for 2 months is worth minimum wage; if that. I know quite a few farriers/vet, they wear both hats. Most mastered the farriery trade first then became a vet and vice versa'. But most people learned to "turn" money first to achieve their long term goals.
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RE:Hungry 08 Sep 2006 10:59 #19

Bill Adams wrote:
Jaye,
It seems you are not concerned about the self esteem of others. As long as one is trying they should be accepted for who they are not expected to conform to others expatations.
Maybe you could let them share enough of your excess income to make a living wage. You shouldn't require more than they may be willing or able to do and to require someone to strive to your standards may not encourage a leval playing feild enviorment.
Please try to be more thoughtfull. Remember you were just lucky to get where you are.
Bill

Hey Bill my mentor tells me to this day, I am just lucky. Every time I hear those words there is a sense of humility, and don't like it too much. Another thing he likes to say is just when you think you have this figured out some horse will come along and humble you. Everyday we can bend our back is a good day and lucky. Ever want to make God laugh, just tell him your plans. :rolleyes:
Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:Hungry 08 Sep 2006 11:02 #20

George Geist wrote:
Dave,
It can be argued that a first year apprentice may not be good for much. However I dont believe it will take an entire year for them to become useful.

Matter of fact I dare say that in as little as a few days to a weeks time both parties should know if the arrangement is going to work out or not.
George

George a few weeks ago an ole race horse trainer told me he could train a guy to know 80% of what he knew in just a few months. The last 20% takes a life time to learn. :)
Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:Hungry 08 Sep 2006 11:14 #21

Complete Equine wrote:
This is an interesting post to me and I just wanted to point out how lucky so many of you are. I went to school for two months in February, came back and tried DESPERATELY to find anyone that I could apprentice with. After calling and emailing about a hundred people, one called me back. I followed him for one day and learned a lot. He did actually pay me, after I insisted that he shouldn't, on the basis that he was always payed a portion of what the person he apprenticed for made. I told him to call me if I could ever ride with him again... he didn't. Since then I have been too busy (and somewhat discouraged) to search anymore for an apprentice. I do ride with my vet occasionally, but that is a little different.

My question for you is this. I work two jobs (farrier and at a restaurant) to pay for my equipment and farrier stuff and school. I am trying to put myself through vet school. I work about 60-70 hours a week and own two horses and am taking some pretty tough college classes. I want nothing more than to learn all I can about shoeing and trimming correctly. However, not only can I not find anyone, but I simply cannot afford to work for free.

I understand what you are saying, but from everything I have seen farriers make pretty good money. If your apprentice doesn't help at all, he shouldn't be paid. But if he is doing his job, why shouldn't he be accomidated?

Any time an established farrier lets someone ride with them, there are huge risks. You never know how a client takes someone else handleing or working on there horses, who is responsible for injurys and property damage from an accident. If your paying someone then technicaly that person is an employee right? It takes at least a couple of years for an apprentice to become usefull enough to become productive. By the time an apprentice becomes productive and usefull most set out on there own. When a farrier pays an apprentice it comes out of our bottom line. This means training an apprentice is a loss not a gain. I think the reason farriers take on apprentices at all is to give back to the industry because we all went through this difficult stage and made sacrifices. We also understand the best way to learn is by rideing with someone. If you stick with your goals, one day you will have the opportunity to give back. When I started out and looking for a farrier to ride with. I just wanted to learn and learning was pay enough and I worked my butt off and kept my mouth shut around his customers, because I knew he was takeing a risk and it cost him haveing me ride along. For a guy to let a female ride along is even a bigger risk. It would be better to find and established female farrier to ride with. Sad to say, however this is life.

I have tell you after around 7 years of doing this full time now, I just might make a good apprentice for guys like Jaye. He would probably fire me, because I can be slow and have a bad attitude.
Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:Hungry 08 Sep 2006 11:55 #22

  • vthorseshoe
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I have a gentleman who rides with me during the winter months. He has his own small construction company and summer is just too busy for him.

Owning 2 belgians a qh and a 1/2 bel/haflinger cross, he has the bug to log and give sleigh rides. He also knows shoeing that many animals costs quite a bit so he asked if I would teach him.
We came to a barter agreeement and it has worked ever since for both of us.

What is comical to see is when I do constuction work i am a physical mess at age 57 and he laughs while he watches me.
Ah !! but when I get him under a draft and he is a physical wreck after holding one leg up, it is my turn to belly laugh.

He is a quick learner because he knows what hard work is, and he knows the value of a $ along with the value of a trade.

It is enjoyable for me to have him ride along because of the company, but he also takes some of the workload off of me. Pulling shoes, cleaning up the shoe's, handing me the correct tools as I need them.
In trade he has learned a lot about handling the animals not only under the draft, but when working with them also.

He has remarked a number of times, he didn't realize what a proper foot should look like until he started riding with me. Then he was able to compare to some of the others he was familiar with in his area and he started noticing things that he knew wasn't right. An eye opener for him.

I have had a few folks ride with me, and I remember one person I had with me who just didn't work out. I ended up putting a foot down and telling the customer I would be back later. I loaded the man up and drove him home. he was a bit surprized and I was a bit relieved.
Made me a bit more choosey from then on.

After many yrs of shoeing on and off and then the last 7 yrs. working on drafts I still get excited after seeing a shoe make a transition or a form of relief in a horses demenor.

I try to share this feeling with owners or others watching but most of the time you can see very clearly that a great frog or a balanced foot or a beautiful shoe job just doean't excite them. They kinda stand there and smile while asking "Can I ride him now ?"

If an apprentice has the sincere desire to shoe or trim, he will find the time and the means to ride with a farrier. money involved or not.

Shoeing isn't just a trade it should be a passion. A deep desire to make a difference. Within that desire comes a need to improve skills, learn new methods of working, and a deep gratification of a "job well done"

A farrier is a technicon, ( sure as he-- isn't much of a speller), an artist, a mechanic, a horseman, a businessman,an inventor. before the concept of making money comes into the picture. All of these things rolled into one person makes a horseshoer.

Find a person displaying these traits and you will mostlikely have an apprentice who will want to learn.
"you may not like what I say" !
-but-
"you'll never have any doubts where I stand
quote Cindy Matthews 1948-2006


I thought my life had come to a close with Cindy's passing, but there is life after death Thankyou Sharon !

Bruce Matthews
Southeast...
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