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TOPIC: Apprenticeships

RE:Apprenticeships 02 Jan 2005 03:16 #31

Bill,
You said earlier that you did not know anyone who worked harder than a farrier: You had better hope your wife does'nt read that! I have a hard time keeping up with my one! She must be really something!
Jason
"Always listen to the experts. They tell you what can't be done, and why. Then do it." Robert Heinlien
Jason Maki CJF, RJF
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RE:Apprenticeships 02 Jan 2005 03:42 #32

  • Mike Ferrara
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Dave Purves wrote:
I don't think we can address the "apprenticeship" problem until we improve the initial schooling that young farriers get. I firmly believe that shoeing school should be two years. Anatomy classes, physiology classes, forging classes, and actual trimming and shoeing classes along with business, marketing and various other essential business classes. The problem with most (not all) but most schools is they say you will get under 100 horses while at school, and you do, but you don't really learn the specifics. So you get your feet wet but you can't tred water much less swim (these are for Mike since he was a diver). If the schools actually got these students to the point where they can help somebody while learning, then I think we would see apprenticeships become more normal. Until then they will be few and far between. I'm a rugged individualist, truelly a libertarian. I live or die by my own hand, but I've had help, and I intend to help others. As far as paying for school, I know many that offer student loans, VA, and other forms of help. The Army paid for my shoeing school. I don't see why they wouldn't pay for two years when they'll pay for three months. I've convinced myself, I'm gonna start the Mideast Farrier University. I need professors, any volunteers?
Dave Purves CF :D

I really think that more comprehensive formal initial training would go a long way.
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RE:Apprenticeships 02 Jan 2005 04:10 #33

  • Mike Ferrara
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Dave Purves wrote:
Hey Mike, I apologize, after I re-read my post it sounds pretty snippy, and I did not intend it that way. I think it's funny though. Every few months certification comes up on these boards. Everyone wants some type way of making our trade more "legitimate" but the guys that are certified spend alot of time defending certification.

Speaking for myself I think it's a matter of a changing standard. During all the time I spent shoeing saddlebreds, carriage horses and whatever else I never thought I'd ever find myself contemplating going to be tested on shoeing a pleasure horse...I'm not saying that that's all there is to it or that it's easy...I just never would have thought that it would happen. Being in a different state and having spent some time away nothing that I did before counts...none of these people were there.

When most of the people putting certification down don't know what goes into getting certified. Like driving nails. There is a standard to nail hole placement, nail height, and they all have to be in a line. That is just one small part of the test. Not to mention, the written test which is anatomy, lameness, and shoe function. Anyway, go to a certification and watch. I'm not asking you to get certified or take the test, just watch. Even better but more expensive, go to a pre-certification clinic. There you will really find out what it takes to get certified. It really isn't just some piece of paper you carry around. The reason I mentioned certification earlier is that it gives you direction, you have to learn the anatomy and physiology, you have to understand shoe fit at least to their standard, you have to be able to make shoe modifications, so as you learn you understand what it is you're learning. You're not just trying to learn how to nail shoes on.
jmo
Dave Purves CF :)

Since comming back to shoeing I joined the associations and read up on the grading standards for certification, got the study guide and have all the recommended reference material. I'll try to hit some of the clinics comming up and in the mean time I'll put together a shoe board and have some guys look em over. From what I read it looks like they want you to fit a shoe a little different than I normally would (at least on some horses) but I guess if I know what they want I should be able to do it. I'm certainly not at a stage in my life where I think I know everything and if I do complain about the process or the results I'll try to do it out of ignorance and it's certainly not to put down any one who's done it.
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RE:Apprenticeships 02 Jan 2005 04:25 #34

  • T.N. Trosin
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Dave Purves wrote:
I don't think we can address the "apprenticeship" problem until we improve the initial schooling that young farriers get.
Dave Purves CF :D
I'm gona be out right corse here. That IS the apprenticeship problem. There is no way that most farriers apprenticeships can cover that stuff because none of these rats comming out of these schools think that something can be learned from sweeping a floor, or rubbing a horse or mucking a stall. I have learned as much or more working for people than I ever could have learned at grand old OFC (God rest it's soul).
I gotta agree with riddle on this one. These children (and I don't give a **** if your 40) comming out of shoeing schools have this misguided sense of entitlement, that their too good to keep the masters floor clean. Most of these guys don't know which end the feed goes in the horse, but oh no, their horseshoers and they need to make top dollar for wrecking your equipment, supplies and business. This is a business of thithes and if your not willing to pay your thithes, I got no sympthy for you. As you pay you learn. And I'm not gona waist my time getting a guy ready for his tests, who isn't willing to make the same or more sacrafices than I had to make to be where I am.
I'll close by saying this. The guys here in southern California that are Fn making it, Covering their debts and making money and not in the supply house whining like IRA calf roppers everytime a shoe goes up a dime ALL served apprenticeships. The rest of these guys are starving on a daily basis because they do not have the BASIC skills to survive in this industry. How simple is that.
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RE:Apprenticeships 02 Jan 2005 04:29 #35

  • Gary_Miller
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Now you guys are finaly going where I hoped this tread would go when I started it.
Now that you have setteled down you have started thinking how do we solve this problem of having medeoker trianed people going into this field.
There are funding for education out there Pell Grants, Work Study, Loans and for us guys that was in the military the GI Bill which pays $1005 a month for three years to attend schools. They will also pay for some apprenticeships. I'm still checking into the requirements to see if a farrier apprenticeship applys. I let you know as soon as I find out.
As for longer schools The only program I found that was two years is at Walla-Walla Community college in Washington. They also have a one year and a short course I think it 3 months. The information on their web site says they get you under enough horses that you are ready to take the certification exam at the end of two years and you also have and associates degree as well. I sure wish I could attend this school but to do so would mean being away from home, and I've been there done that while in the military and don't want to do that to my family again when I have the control.

One other thing some of these classes Dave mentioned could be offered though the internet. Of course the hands on classes couldn't but if there was good apprenticeships where the trainer could get paid and the trainee could get lots of hand on those classes could be done localy. These are the things I feel that the Association and Guild could do to help the new guys to met the standard disired by both organizations.

So see the Farrier & Hoofcare Resource Center School is not such a bad idea.

We just have to think out of the box.

Keep talking because I'm learning alot about this trade and how it works right here on this tread.

Thanks agin
Gary
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RE:Apprenticeships 02 Jan 2005 13:26 #36

If the Farrier & Hoofcare Resource Center School idea takes off, don't forget who thought of it. :D
Phil Armitage, CF
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"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:Apprenticeships 02 Jan 2005 16:21 #37

Phil goes to the head of the class. :D Mike, I understand that shoeing a flat shod horse for certification may seem a bit silly when you shoe saddlebreds. But some of the best farriers I've ever seen under a horse are from Jason's neck of the woods around Cleveland all long-footed shoers and all CJF's.

There is another two year program here in Ohio at a college that I'm not sure I would recomend to anyone cause I know the instructors and I don't think the emphasize balance, anatomy and theory enough, and you don't get under that many horses in two years and the classes are once a week. So check the ciriculum really well before you attend just cause it's two years long. ;)
good luck
Dave Purves CF
"Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects." Will Rogers

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBimQu6Pxxs
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RE:Apprenticeships 02 Jan 2005 19:07 #38

  • matryoshka
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It seems that one of the difficulties for new farrier-school graduates is finding somebody to ride with and learn from. Would a database of experienced farriers willing to take on riders and/or apprentices help? We need qualified mentors.

Perhaps the personal bio could be enlarged to include location, years of farrier experience and specialties, such as gaited horses, hand-made shoes, corrective shoeing, trimming only, etc. I don't even know what specialties are out there in the farrier world, but you get the idea. You'd also need a check box for whether you are currently willing to take on a rider or apprentice and under what conditions.

I don't know the best way to set something like that up, but would there be any interest? Would this answer any of the concerns posted on this thread?
Crusader Rabbit Rides Again!
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RE:Apprenticeships 02 Jan 2005 22:41 #39

  • Mike Ferrara
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Dave Purves wrote:
Phil goes to the head of the class. :D Mike, I understand that shoeing a flat shod horse for certification may seem a bit silly when you shoe saddlebreds. But some of the best farriers I've ever seen under a horse are from Jason's neck of the woods around Cleveland all long-footed shoers and all CJF's.

Just for the record Dave, "silly" isn't the word I would use. I agree that a flat shod horse represents all the same basic principles that go into doing any horse. While I could see adding other tests to what I would call a meaningfull certification I sure wouldn't argue for leaving out a plain shod pleasure horse. I only say that because there's lots that it doesn't test.
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RE:Apprenticeships 03 Jan 2005 02:27 #40

You're right Mike, but it's a pretty good start. At least they cover the basics of anatomy, lameness and forging. If you get a chance ask Danvers to look at your modifications, he helped grade mine in Ky. He had alot of good advice.
good luck
Dave Purves CF :)
"Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects." Will Rogers

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBimQu6Pxxs
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RE:Apprenticeships 01 Feb 2005 17:25 #41

ALL GREAT YA'LL i have been shoeing the back yard horses 1 her drive 100 miles shoe here I WOULD LOVE TO APPRENTICE WITH SOMEONE BUT NOT FOR NOTHING I'VE DONE IT. I feel I am a good farrier I will get better with more horses more experience, more situations dealing with horses feet take me I'll do it in a heartbeat I JUST WANT TO GET BETTER AND MAKE A LIVING DOING WHAT I LOVE TO DO
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RE:Apprenticeships 10 Feb 2005 04:12 #42

  • old heller
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some people have spent 20 years in the horse industry taking other peoples s*** mucking their stalls baling their hay traing their horses and fixing up ratty old barns.so when someone puts out 6-10k for their own education and works hard at it they are to be commended.But interestingly I have made some decisions on what i will do and what i won't do in the industry.i think its good if you have someone to sweep floors,that was always a pet peeve of mine.in my area sweeping is beneath the farriers.i never understood why someone wouldn't leave a place like they found it.not to mention the potential for accidents.if i am mucking a stall now then i did some thing wrong with my farrier education. myself i think have another job with hours that do not interfere with ones abilities to ride with someone several times a week payment is optional as i have a job ie.nitewatch on those other days i can make a mountain of shoes straigten em out and start again.granted i dont have a wife and kids. how come no body is talking about what happened in Florida ,Illinois,and Arizona?????? i think these may be the biggest issues facing the industry.......are you as farriers willing to strike or deny services to keep this profession free from the clutches of the VETeRINARY ASSOCIATION.....thats what i wonder peace all
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RE:Apprenticeships 10 Feb 2005 12:21 #43

  • Mike Ferrara
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old heller wrote:
how come no body is talking about what happened in Florida ,Illinois,and Arizona?????? i think these may be the biggest issues facing the industry.......are you as farriers willing to strike or deny services to keep this profession free from the clutches of the VETeRINARY ASSOCIATION.....thats what i wonder peace all

I guess you've got me. At the risk of sounding ignorant, what happened in Florida, Illinois and Arizona?
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RE:Apprenticeships 11 Feb 2005 02:44 #44

I don't know but this might be it by. some legislators? they are trying to get any horse related activity shoeing,dental,message,so forth to be supervised by a vet. that means a vet has to be present in order for you to do what ever it is you want to do with that horse??
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RE:Apprenticeships 11 Feb 2005 06:45 #45

  • old heller
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exact amundo yes a group calling themselves Alliance for animal owners rights is tracking and do***enting the various states bills yes in fl.,az.,and il.it is against the law to place any type of theraputic device on an animal without the consent of a veterinarian.new jersey excluded farriers from their bill.I personally think that it is high time to discuss this as the vet.association is gathering strength nationwide. I would also think that this deserves a new subject or thread but do not know how to start on are you listening baron??? ;) ;) How do we get organised?What or how did the farriers in Florida,Illinois,and Arizona deal with this,or was it business as usual?Or did they make the vets.sign a waiver or is a waiver even legal?Have they denied services?Which group of vets.caused this large or small animal vets.? What would constitute a farriers union?How would it happen hold together would the Guilds help?the AFA,BWFA,AFJ? would a cosolidated front protect us in the area of supply of pruducts or in pricing our work etc.I know there are people a lot smarter than me out there that have concerns and some of you are a lot more eloquent and have better ways of writing these isues down. anyway hope to hear some feedback.Otherwise we deserve what we get. :eek: peace
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