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TOPIC: Apprenticeships

Apprenticeships 29 Dec 2004 17:18 #1

  • Gary_Miller
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There is a lot of posts here that encourage the new guy comming out of school to seek out an apprenticeships.

When I asked about apprenticeships on the post in the Guild form. The standard reply was don't expect to get under any horses for a while, expect to do the durty work, and don't expect to get any pay.

Some comments was that you can't expect to go for two years then be paid for the next two years. But this is wrong many trades are two year schools, in which you get your apprenticeship license at the end and the go to work being paid while doing an apprenticeship.

Other comments were that a person should work in another job while apprenticing by riding around diffrent farriers until you know enough to go out on your own.

I even had one person tell me to give him a call and I could apprentice with him with no pay and he would set me up to go on my own in four years if I made it.

This way of thinking only goes to strenghten the reason those comming directly out of school are going directly to work instead of seeking out an apprenticeship. There is no other choice, in order to get the hands on needed to improve, they need to get under the horse, and the only way to get under a horse is to seek out clients. So they charge less than the others in the area, because they don't feel quilified enough to charge the same as the more experianced guy, and two in order to get work so they can gain experiance, and try to make a living doing the trade they are trained in. This is also the reason many don't make it because they need to make a living and don't always have the experiance needed to run a busness.

Why is it that most other trades put thier apprentice to work right away doing real work under the direction of master, and pays a wage while doing an apprenticeship. But people in this trade expect a apprentice to only watch with no hands on, and to work for nothing?

It's no wonder that guys coming directly out of school go to work right away even though they still need experiance. A guy can learn many things while watching but in a trade that is 100% hands on you learn more by doing under the watchful eye of the master.

Gary
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RE:Apprenticeships 29 Dec 2004 22:38 #2

  • solidrockshoer
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You have to remember that being a farrier means you are self-employed. It is tough getting started in this business, thats why newbies always get the ones other farriers don't want to mess with. We have all spend years building a clientel list of people with good horses to work on, it takes time to build confidence in peoples minds for them to trust you with their horses. My clients expect the best out of me, thats why they call me. If I put someone else under my horses then what to my clients need me for? Taking on a helper cuts into my profits and my time under a horse, so really an apprentice might help with the work ,it takes time for the understudy to be trusted and not watched over, which takes time away from the job. I want to do my five or six horses aday and be able to have some time for my family and my horses or boat or fishing or what ever I want to do with my time. Good Luck it's tough getting started! Gary
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RE:Apprenticeships 29 Dec 2004 23:21 #3

Why is it that most other trades put thier apprentice to work right away doing real work under the direction of master, and pays a wage while doing an apprenticeship. But people in this trade expect a apprentice to only watch with no hands on, and to work for nothing?



Gary[/QUOTE]

Gary, you answered your own question. Most plumbers, HVAC, electricians and other tradesmen, go to school for at least two years. How long was your shoeing school? Most are three months if you took the long course. Many people go to a two week school and expect to know something. In this line of work expect your apprenticship to be an extension of school except you don't have to pay for it. How can you complain when you don't have to pay for two years of education? You can apprentice with somebody work, learn a trade and all it cost you was time. If you go to college or tech school you have to pay somebody for that, and you don't get much real world expierience. The funny thing is that most people that want to become farriers do it, cause it looks easy, they think there is a huge shortage of farriers, and they don't have to put the time or money into getting a "real" education. Guess what, you do. Most of us have worked full time jobs while building a business and riding with any other farrier that would let us. You're gonna have to work for you knowledge. It's not free. It wasn't for me or anyone else here. In one form or another you pay. Do what you can if this is really what you want to do, then pay the price to learn right. I did it while raising a young family. And I'm still doing it. It realy urks me that you want to be paid for your education. The knowledge you got in school only made you dangerous enough to hurt some horse. It probably takes you about 4 hours to shoe a horse and you want someone to pay you for that.
as we said in the Army, suck it up, and drive on.
good luck
Dave Purves CF :)
"Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects." Will Rogers

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RE:Apprenticeships 29 Dec 2004 23:57 #4

Dave,
I was thinking the other day that between school, working without pay, cliinics, forging a shoe when a box shoe would work, taveling to certifications, I spent, or did the work of without pay, about fourty thousand dollars to get a CJF. The best part is that is just the beginning! In my breif time in the Air Force, it was "Suck it up and press on"...get it right, huh! :D
Gary, this is a tough way to go, and honestlyyour success or failure lies squarely on you!If you help yourself, people will add to your knowlegde. This is probobly the last free trade( thank god) but nothing in it comes for free! Do not get discouraged, you will work ten times harder than you thought [pssible to get a little way, but it will eventually get easier!
Jason
"Always listen to the experts. They tell you what can't be done, and why. Then do it." Robert Heinlien
Jason Maki CJF, RJF
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RE:Apprenticeships 30 Dec 2004 00:47 #5

  • Gary_Miller
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Dave
Thanks for your reply. I don't expect to be paid for my education as a matter of fact I would gladly pay in order to learn more. The diffrence between a two college and an apprenticeship is I can get federal student aid funding in the form of pell grants, work study and student loans that will enable me to survie while gaining that education in a college. I can't get that in an apprenticeship. There are shoeing schools that last longer than three months unfortunatly(for personal reasons) that is not available to me, or I would do it. All that is available is a one month shoeing class, everything else I will have to learn on my own, which I have already started doing by reading and studing anything I can get my hands on.
As I said I would gladly pay for my apprenticeship as long as I could get the same education funding I can get while goiong to school. But I want to be learning not watching, I want to be under the horse with hands on with the person I'm apprenticing with directing, watching and telling me what I'm doing right and wrong. I don't want to be just riding along watching the master work which is what I'm running into. I want to do the work so I can learn. This is a hands on trade.
As for being paid. If all I doing is riding then I don't expect to be paid for that oppertunity. But if the community of farrier science says that a three month long school is all that is needed in order for a guy to be a farrier and go to work and I've done that I do expect to get paid for the work I do, it doesn't matter if it takes 1 hour or 4 hours to get the job done, as long as it done correctly. Speed will come in time but will never come if I'm not under the horse getting the hands on experiance I expect in and apprenticeship. If I'm not getting the hands on and being paid for the work I do. Where is the insentive for me to do an apprenticeship, instead of just going on my own ans learning from the school of hard knocks, as well as other things like books, clinics and other sorces available.
I agree with Gary Hill. An established farrier has built up a client base that allows him to just make enough money to support his family, and in order to do this he has to shoe a certian amount of animals a day. He can't afored to let someone else work under his horse especially a new guy who is slow, as well as take the chance that the job maybe poor and he may lose a client. This is all understanding. So then they do the next best thing and allow a guy to ride with them and ask questions.
This practice is good but you guys who have done this know its not good enough because you need the hands on. Whats the solution I'm not sure. But have a few suggestions. Shoeing schools need to be longer in order for a guy to get more time under the horses before they go out on thier own. Apprenticeships need to have more hand on. Not sure how to do this but I think it important. Associations can have some type of education program that new guys can participate, this could be in the form of lones or grants depending on the cir***stances.
Please understand that even though I have written this in the personal sense. I not conserned about myself. I have another income and can do all of what has been suggested and get buy just fine. It's the young guy comming out of school who can't afford to do this. And in order for them to learn they have to have the hands on.
Maybe we can use this post to relieze that there is a problem, and discuss ways to solve the education and apprenticeship problem. In order to help the new guy get established. Maybe there is no solution but alot of suggestioins that may help someone become all he can be.

Sucking it up and driving on, and expecting to get all the bad horses know one wants in order to get the hands on experience. I just hope that I don't have to under cut the current guys just to get that experience.

Gary
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RE:Apprenticeships 30 Dec 2004 01:32 #6

  • Jaye Perry
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This biggest decision you have to make is "Do I really want to put shoes on horses as a career?". Any career is a life style, you eat ,drink ,sleep and live it. If you want it enough. If you want to be a farrrier and be good at what you do, shoeing and learning how to shoe , learning from your mistakes and relizing it takes time to build self confidence. The career must become a drug
A drug in the sense that you can't get enough of Farriery and it's assiociated aspects.

You do what it takes to achieve your goal. If that means stocking grocery store shelves at night and working , beating the bushes during the day; DO IT!

If you think that is to much work, or to much of a commitment to a goal one may need to re-think about the chosen career. A career is not a job it's your life's dedication to something you believe in.
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RE:Apprenticeships 30 Dec 2004 01:37 #7

  • Rick Burten
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Gary

Coming out of school, no one is going to let you get under their client's horses. We just can't take the chance. Most of us start someone out pulling shoes, cleaning them up, and, in short order, clinching. It will take quite some time before you get to nail up and even longer before you are trusted to trim. after you have ridden with someone for a while and he/she gets comfortable with you , you may get to work on some broodmares and other pasture ornaments. But it will be closely supervised and if you tend to get upset when someone else is giving you instructions on how they want the job done, you will not last long with any other farrier. Also, after you have watched another farrier trim and/or shoe a couple of horses, you should have his/her routine down and be able to help without being asked or told. And that includes not only cleaning up shoes, but cleaning up the work area and keeping everything in order in the truck or shop. Asking pertinent questions at an appropriate time is always in order, but you will have to learn to be discrete. Especially when the owner or other 'civillians' are around.
In time, you will be asked to start shaping shoes to fit a particular foot, and to make modifications to shoes. So, you will need forging skills.

In the beginning, perhaps you will have another job and only ride with the other farrier a few days a week. This is fine. On other days or nights, you should be at home working in the forge, building shoes and then bringing them with you for a critique by the farrier(s) you are riding with. The good farriers, will point out your errors or shortcomings, and then have you work in the forge with them. Just remember that not every farrier is a teacher, and not every farriery instructor is a farrier(in the true sense of the word).

You will also begin to develop your own clients. At first, the work will be scarce. This is not all bad as it will leave you time to ride with someone and to practice, practice , practice. As your clientele grows, you will work the other job less(if indeed you are working another job) but will want to continue your association with the other farrier(s). By that time, you should be useful to the other guy/gal, and he/she should be starting to pay you something. And buying you your lunch and/or dinner if you work late. In time, the farrier will start to send overflow work your way. This is the sign that he/she trusts you and that your work and knowledge has progressed enough that he/she has the confidence that you will get the job done correctly.

While you will probably not charge as much in the beginning as others , you have to be careful not to set your fees so low that they make you look like a scab, and also not enable you to "catch up" to everyone else as your skills, knowledge and ability increase. Which is why it is quite helpful to work with someone else. Then, its no big deal when your fees are , perhaps, less, but competetive/comparable.

The first four or five years are the toughest ones. The learning curve is steep. It is often opined that a beginning farrier should, during those early years, not work in the area in which he/she plans to settle. That way, you make your mistakes somewhere else, and come into your "home territory" as an experienced farrier without the 'baggage' of those early years.

Many farriers do not want to take on an apprentice. There are legal and financial ramifications to this kind of relationship. Many who do have an apprentice, do so only after a legal contract has been drawn. The contract spells out the responsibilities of each party, how the relationship is envisioned to work, and the length of the relationship. (there are more things, but that should be worked out by the 'master's' attorney, reviewed by your attorney, any conflicts resolved, and then signed. That way, all parties are protected, in writing. So many times, the 'handshake' agreement goes bad.

It has been my privlege to have been associated with some fine young and upand coming farriers. I have always considered the relationship to be that of an 'associate' rather than an 'apprentice'. It seems to work out much better that way.

Just some rambling on my part. Hope it helps.

My very best wishes to you and all my collegues for a Healthy, Safe and Happy New Year!

I hope to see many of you in Cincinnati. Look me up, I'm not hard to find. I'm the one with all the ATTITUDE! :eek: :D

Rick :D
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RE:Apprenticeships 30 Dec 2004 14:35 #8

  • Mike Ferrara
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I've been on both sides of this...and more than once. LOL

I was lucky in that they guy I worked for when I started owned a boarding and training barn. I was working on horses about 15 minutes into my apprenticeship. I had actually watched a few horses get shod but when the teachin finally started, Bob gave me some books to read and demonstrated triming a foot. then it was my turn. I had 20 head of livery horses to work on all I wanted. I didn't get paid for it of course but I got paid for the other things I did around the barn. Still I didn't make much money but I didn't have a family or a mortgage at the time either. Eventually I started doing coustomer horses and later started working outside that barn. The first horse I shod made for an interesting evening. I won't even guess at how long it took and the nails were nothing to brag about. It hurt my back and legs more then when I was 20 than I can even describe but it all got better from there and old Black Jack seemed no worse for the wear. you learn by doing.

In centuries past an apprentice might work for years without pay while they learned but the master provided for the apprentice...you worked for room and board.

A modern example would be the electricians union. There is a well defined apprentice program. you spend part of the time in school and part of the time on the job. In the beginning the on the job stuff is mostly labor but there is a union pay scale for an apprentice. You don't work as a laborer for free. Apprentice scale is also way above minimum wage. You move up in title and pay at a set rate and after a predetermined amount of time you're making journymen pay.

Early on when you are more of a burden than anything else you can't expect some one to pay you to learn. At the same time there is no way to learn to shoe a horse by just watching. You have to do it and I don't care what any one says. The short 8 or 12 week shoeing schools, as far as I can tell, are designed to teach you enough that you could do something more than watch as an apprentice. Surely you could finish feet, fit a shoe and even do some of the easy trims..any of which may need some supervision and/or correction. so what? You want to be a teacher? That's teaching! Some of the brood mares I get called to trim have an inch of foot to cut off. How much do any of you want to bet that I could have a noob cut off the first half inch with no danger to the horse? It would save my back some too. I certainly understand that when a customer calls you that they want you to shoe their horse. You're not really in a position to take any one on then are you? You have to have some clients who trust you to get the job done any way you see fit or the whole apprentice thing is a moot subject.

I've taught music, scuba diving and helped a couple guys get started shoeing and no one learns without doing. Oh, they might learn something but they won't learn to actually do it.

Most shoeing businesses are one person oporations and will only support one. Real apprenticeships aren't that common because there's no system to make it work. The fact is that a guy can go to school for a few weeks and if he works cheap he'll do well enough to keep the local backyard folks and their horses happy enough and he'll make 20 times what he'll make riding with the local guru who charges $150 or more to nail on 4 kegs. We all like to think that we're highly skilled craftsmen but the fact is that most horses just aren't going to push our level of skill and knowledge, The owner isn't going to pay $200 for your great skill when it's the guy down the street who needs it or because they may need it someday with some horse when the newer guy who may not be ready to do the champion jumpers can do a fine job of knocking off 1/4 inch of foot and nailing on a store baught shoe.

So, after that long winded shpeal, my advice is ride with other guys if you can and learn what you can when time and money allow. At the same time build your own business and shoe as many yourself as you can. If you find yourself in over your head, say so and call some one for help. If you're 15 and Mom and Dad will feed you while you ride with some one a couple of years, jump on it...if they're really good...but be careful there too.
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RE:Apprenticeships 30 Dec 2004 15:05 #9

  • Mike Ferrara
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millergs wrote:
Dave
Sucking it up and driving on, and expecting to get all the bad horses know one wants in order to get the hands on experience. I just hope that I don't have to under cut the current guys just to get that experience.

Gary

You will too! You'll get both the clients and the horses that the established guys don't want for one reason or the other.

You know what else? Some of those clients and horses aren't all that bad either. I wish I had an extra dollar for every call I got where the client warned me that the horse didn't stand and every one else refused to do them and they stood just fine for me. What does that tell us?

There are many facets to the horse business. There are millionairs who will pay any price for a farrier with a name to shoe their big name horse and there are plenty of backyard folks with $400 horses who aren't going to pay $200 for shoes. You start with one and work your way into the other if you can or even want to.
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RE:Apprenticeships 30 Dec 2004 23:26 #10

I tell ya what, I will loan you $30,000 to pay me for the next 2 years for your apprenticeship, at 6.8% interest. You can live in my basement, my wife doesn't cook much or all that well but I will make sure you eat at least twice a day. ( I don't eat much for breakfast cause I don't like anything sitting in my gut while I'm bent over all day). You can pay me back in 5 years after your two year "schooling" period is over. I can't give you a diploma, but you will work toward AFA certification and take the test at least once before you leave my tutilage. The problem with grants is somebody has to pay for them, and as we've explained if we can't afford an apprentice how can we afford to pay for grants. I pay enough taxes without worrying about paying for some guy to "apprentice" with somebody when the odds are they will quit in the first few years anyway. We all have to pay many dues to continue to learn and become better. In the beginning it is very hard I know. I have a buddy that decided to start shoeing so he went to school, got a great truck a big time shoeing box on the back and all the gizmo's and gadgets you can imagine, he's been shoeing for about a year, I've been at this for almost 8 years and I don't have half of the stuff he does, I asked him how the heck he could afford all that and he told me his wife is a hand surgeon. Some of us have it easier than others, but those of us that have to really work our tails off to get will only enjoy it that much more. If your wanting someone to give you money to live life while you learn you need to go to college and do something else. I'm not trying to be an ****** but that's the truth of it. And If you work for me and I have to wait 4 hours for you to shoe one horse I just lost about $500. And that's only half a day, you want two years.
sorry it's so blunt
Dave Purves CF :o
I would like to start my own farrier university, would anyone like to be one of my professors? It doesn't pay much but I'll feed ya twice a day. lol
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RE:Apprenticeships 31 Dec 2004 00:07 #11

Hey Dave,
When did you start channeling Rush Limbaugh? This trade requires,far more than any other I have ever encountered, RUGGED INDIVIDUALISM. Live by it and thrive, or rail against it and founder, but the facts are this: No one cares if we succeed or fail; the only one responsible for our education is us. I am thankful for my teachers, and was in fact embbarassed that a great shoer I rode with offered to pay me. He spent all day teaching me the rudiments of show packages. Sure, I trimmed a few feet, and built two pair of shoes for a western horse, but I slowed him down big time. I did take a pair of nippers in leiu of payment. That I did for him, because his code dictated that I had "worked" for him, so he owed me a days pay. He had already taught me a ton, but that was not concrete enough for him.
This trade is full of grat guys who work way to hard for, after expenses, way to little. They all climbed a mountain that they themselves set out to climb. Most will offer assistance in words and experience, but do not clear enough to pay anothers wage.
I spent months, a day at a time, watching my teacher trim feet. I would then build a shoe for it. while he trimmed the back. Hw would then look at the shoe, laugh and throw it away. Eventually I would pull, he would trim and fit and I would nail and finish. The day that MY shoe went on his horse without him reworking it was a big day. I'll never forget that day! I Trimmed the hind feet on a little warmblood and built the shoes. He was driving mustad CH 5's and they are stiff buggers. I was so excited, that I knocked the shoe back into the clip notches, drove my toe nails, and reached around to bend the nail over. I pulled so hard that my hammer came up and knocked me in the mouth bloodying my lip! I have never seen him laugh so hard. He got on the cell, called Bob(his teacher) told him " he finally got one right, then beats himself to death!" I could hear the howling from under the horse.
I nailed off the shoes and finished the horse before I went to check my face. I did manage to not bleed on the horse! Its funny, I feel like I owe these guys a debt i can never repay. They taught me in a couple of years, what I would not have learned in fifty on my own. I have a lifelong freind, and an ally in this loneley bussiness--I should have paid him!
I worked a job, first dismantling PCB transformers, then selling computers, shod as many horses as I could and worked with my teacher one to two days aweek. Eventually, I dropped the job, and went full time, but I would work a sunday before i would skip a Wednesday with him. It was a bittersweet day when I passed my last test, and he told me that I did not need to come,unless I wanted too. I still try to spend a couple of days a year, working for "free". I enjoy the company, and maybe I can work off a little of the tuition I was never charged!
Jason Maki CJF
"Always listen to the experts. They tell you what can't be done, and why. Then do it." Robert Heinlien
Jason Maki CJF, RJF
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RE:Apprenticeships 31 Dec 2004 00:12 #12

  • solidrockshoer
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I would like to see the schools take on alittle more responsibility as to the students they are turning out. I know there are some good schools with great instructors,but we all know there are some that just crank out students knowing that they will fail in the business after a few months. A local guy I know,that has been at it for just a few years is calling it quits and going back to school to learn another trade. He has the ambition,but just had too many problems keeping regular customers happy. Good thing for him he has his GI loan to get him into something else. I just picked up some new clients from another guy that just keeps failing to show up? The main thing besides KNOWING how to balance a foot and shoe properly is to run your business like a business. I don't think that's even covered in a two week school? And don't ya just hate when one of your clients with a bunch of horses asks you to teach him how to trim his own so he can save money! Just some thoughts that ran across my mind. Good Luck! Gary
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RE:Apprenticeships 31 Dec 2004 04:13 #13

This is a great thread. I have a tough decision to make real soon about taking on an apprentice. I want to help out the guy coming out of school and help them get off to a good start. It is important to get off to a good start if your going to be successfull. I remember thinking I could take on customers and start making money right away then a friend stopped me. He let me ride with him 1 day a week, sometime 2 and told me to keep my job as I was learning. I worked two part time job, one day job and on third shift job and apprenticed 1 day a week to make ends meet for two years. I wanted to shoe that badly. I am so glad I followed my friends advice and I am now trying to explain this to a guy who has ridden with me twice, he just got of school and is eager to get clients. He has spread his cards out everywhere. I told him, for his owne good I hope he does not get in over his head. Be carefull for what you wish for, you may get it, make a mistake and ruin any chance of shoeing for a living. My wife is against me takeing on an apprentice, it would require adjusting my insurance and she feels it is a huge risk. Everything is going smooth for me and I worked hard for it and earned it by paying my dues and being patient. I have no problem letting someone ride with me and helping them out, but I could not pay them until they became productive. This is where the problem lies, when do you know if the apprentice if capable of getting under a horse without injuring themselfes or the horse? The ideal plan is for the apprentice to pull shoes and finish. Drill stud holes, put on pads and other tasks that help save time, but before I let a person do too much they have to prove to me they can do it safely. This takes time, schools do not teach you much about these things and the horses we do in the real world might be good for the Farrier that they are use to and not a stranger. It took me years to understand horses and read them well enough inorder to work around them and keep them calm. I understand how eager new guys are, but they need to understand it is not a simple job and there are high risks involved, one being a guys lively hood. If someone is kind enough to let you ride with them, you better take it and be happy with that, get paid by keeping your job until your up to speed. Good luck and be patient.
Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:Apprenticeships 31 Dec 2004 05:34 #14

  • Bill Adams
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Things required to be a Farrier (IMNTBHO):
You must have been given a raise by an employer without asking (non-union).
You must not miss any work after an injury that would get you a week off from a regular job.
You must not expect other people to confascate working people's money and give it to you (grants).
You must think that Rush is kinda libral.
A serious head injury is not required but helps.
You must realize the above is the tip of the iceburg.

As someone above said this is a life style. I haven't had a job for years but I work harder than anyone I know who isn't a Farrier. Where else at work do they call a friend to laugh about someone hitting themselves in the face with a hammer, like Jason. How many other people would finish what they're doing before checking ther face, let alone not taking a week off and getting a lawyer. Of course it could have made Jason look better so in some cases it could be a fringe benifit. My wife says the scar from the corner of my eye down a couple of inches makes me look tough.

I think that if others are required to do this or that for a person, that person aint gona make it.
That said, like the others here, I'm willing to, and have, help anyone anytime, if only because of the help I've been given.
My $0.02,
Bill

A rightous man regardeth the life of his beast. Proverbs 12:10
I don't give a damn for a man who can only spell a word one way. Mark Twain
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RE:Apprenticeships 31 Dec 2004 13:13 #15

Your right Bill, Rush is too liberal. I said a guy is lucky to find someone "kind" enough to let them ride with them, I should of said "generous" enough. Even if a Farrier does not pay there apprentice there being more than generous just letting someone ride along, and very generous letting someone touch a horse or there tools. Becomeing a Farrier will forever change your life, how you think, act and feel and I believe it has changed me for the better. Even if I barely make it financialy, what I have gained in my life from horses and other people is more than I can mention here. I am starting to get teary eyed just writing this, and I am not kidding. It is hard to explain to a new person what it takes, all I can do is tell you to be patient, gratefull and stay safe. Learn all you can from all the people you can. Learn all you can about horses just hanging around horses will teach you alot, they will teach you about you, your weaknesses and your strengths use your strengths and improve your weaknesses. They will also teach you how to gain trust and respect. Horses do not care who you are male or female or how you dress they only care about what you are and they do not hesitate to tell you if they do not like you or if they like you. You have to figure out how to get along with them. One more tid bit of information for the newbies to think about as they take there journey, you can fool people, but you cannot fool horses, 90% of problems with horses is not the horse, it is people, you, me & others, keep that in mind the next time your having a hard time and are ready to loose it, take a step back and figure out what your doing wrong. I recently heard of a Professional Horse Trainer telling people in a clinic he held he did not care about how horses think and feel he just wants them to respect them, he was very hard on the horses and the people. One of my clients asked me what I thought about that, I told them, I felt sorry for the guy, because one day he will meat a horse that does not fear anything and will stomp him into the ground like a bug, I just hope he does not have any love ones that will suffer after hearing about there husband or Dad getting his head stomped in by a rank horse.

Happy New Year
Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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