Gary Hill wrote:Gary, I understand. So perhaps my question should have been, "if in the course of handling a horse, especially if you are doing something to alter its behavior if only for a brief time, the horse reacts and is injured or injures or damages someone else or something else, is your manner of handling going to be called into question and as a result, expose you to legal risk or defamation?

This, along with Bruce's list of things farrier's may, in the course of their workday, do, is the reason Care, Custody and Control Insurance exists. I note, for the record, that some of the things Bruce listed will probably result in a judgement against you or at a minimum, a knock on your reputation. I also note for the record that I am guilty of at least a few of the acts Bruce lists, much less so now than when I was younger and suffered from Testosterone Poisoning.

It is my considered opinion and experience that every time we interact with a horse one or more of the following occurs"
1. You train the horse
2. The horse trains you
3. You train each other.

I feel it is important to always bear that in mind as 'handling the horse' is always a form of one or more of those interactions and will have repercussions even if/when you are not negligent.

When someone retains my services as a farrier, I do my level best to stick to being a farrier in the strictest sense of the term. Bear in mind that the instant you put the halter on a horse or snap a lead on a horse or touch the horse to begin evaluating or working, that horse has come under your care, custody and control and you are legally responsible for everything that then ensues.

And, I think that any farrier who carries chemical restraint and/or the means to administer it, and then does administer it whether the farrier or client provides said chemical restraint and means of administration, is really foolish and had better have very, very deep pockets. Even insurance won't cover you if you are charged with and/or convicted of practicing veterinary medicine without a license.

Also, Bruce is correct regarding being sued for negligence. Its a tough charge to prove, but defending yourself against the charge can be a very expensive ordeal.Of course not. The plaintiff still has to prove negligence.Not necessarily. As with most everything equid related, It Depends.

And for the record, Bruce, I am not taking issue with either you or your methods. If that is the impression I gave, then I apologize. I think your methods are good and reasonable and if we, as farriers, routinely dealt with horsemen/women, my concerns would be much more mitigated. But the sad fact is that nowadays we deal with horse owners who on the best day of their lives wouldn't make a pimple on a horseman's butt. YMMV

Bottom line Rick is, the fact so many horseowners are just that. They bought a horse for the family and on relie on what the remember when they were kids, whip and ride ...It is my donkey under the horse so I do take control of the animal so it stays off of me..most the time I run off the owners and the horse is fine??

Rick,
I never take offense at anything you try to point out to others. Quite the contrary I appreciate someone playing devil's advocate and letting others see both sides of a coin rather than just one side.
Just as much as I appreciate someones genuine belief and concern for the well being of others.

And while I am on the subject, let it be known to all who are reading, I hold you and your advice and skills in the highest of regards.
As a clinician you are still remembered by the folks who attended your clinic in Vermont. They not only remark on the lessons we learned but they constantly remark on the relaxed manner and the genuine interest you showed for each and every participant.

The years we have been on this site alone I have learned more from you than I bet you even realize.

I have been around horseshoers all my life and you've always been the real deal and one of my most valued friends.

my 2 cents worth

You guys are absolutely right in a way. Being a mean, lean, horse fighting machine is not good for business and not part of our job and will probably line you up for a trip to the E. R. or a book full of those types of horses and a lifetime of shoeing dinks. However most good clients owen good horses and I find that they rally care about how there horses are handled. When just one of those type customers hear a friend say "old so and so did my horse and was so patient and took the time to work threw the problem. "i think you'll find your books filling up with people who take the time and work with there horses. Evan if you have no intention of training ,learning this stuff will make your day a little less stressful and a hole lot safer for you and your horses. Knowing. This stuff will put you in a position to see a bad situation befor something bad happens and give you a few alternatives to avoid putting your self or the horse into that situation. But maybe your all rite ,its not our job we don't need to know.

Last night at 6 p.m. until 7:30 p.m. I worked on two large Clydesdales last night with seperate problems of their own...

The first had a history of abcessing after (according to the owner) being quicked. The left rear grew a rather large hoof and she eventually had the local vet x-ray it.
I took a trip to the vet and the only thing I noticed was some calcification in the articulating area's.

When I picked up her hind leg she pulled away each time.
I then went ahead and trimmed all the other 3 legs and made her comfortable, then went back to tackle the left hind.
I lowered my foot stool to the max and tried that. She was uncomfortable with the leg being raised and bent.
I then tried lifting her leg with out bending the joint and brought the stool in from the front instead of setting the leg on it from the top.
This worked for a short time, enough to take one swipe with the knife, so I then got her to relax her leg and I drew it forward on the foot stool and proceeded to trim the outer wall with it setting on the stool (in the manner where you would use it to rasp the walls).
This allowed me to take the wall down and then focus on cleaning the sole.

I then asked for the leg and instead of picking it up from the ground, I slid it back leaving the toe on the ground and in this manner I was able to clean out the sole area of the excess material that had built up.
I then brought it forward once again on the foot stool and rasped and cleaned up all the rough areas.

The whole thing with this mare was the bending of the pastern joint causeing her discomfort, SO ! I just worked around it and got the job done.


The second mare was a young mare who had been handled by a young person and she developed the habit of kicking with her right hind.

I went through the process and schoing with my long cotton rope and in less than 5 minutes I was trimming this mare in the normal fashion with her hind leg supported by my thighs and knee's.
I then proceeded to trim the other three and finished the second mare and was packing my tools to go home.

Now this account is a large one and well worth my time working on these two mares. 17 head of Clydesdales at this one stop...
I worked on, schooled on and trimmed all around these two large Clydesdales in 1 1/2 hrs and was loading my tools and equipment and heading for home with a check in my hand..

The owner was smiling and said she fully expected this mare to give me a "LOT" of problems.

I post this to give others an insight into what I will show at any clinic I am invited to put on.
An insight into looking at a problem and figureing out a manner to work through it without getting hurt or fighting with the animal. Thus accomplishing your task at hand and over time you will find the horse improves and gets easier to work on until it stands like a well mannered normal horse.

my 2 cents worth