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TOPIC: farrier workshop on improving your horsemanship skills when shoeing a horse

RE:farrier workshop on improving your horsemanship skills when shoeing a horse 10 Aug 2011 11:38 #16

  • DavidinGA
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Ok, so I'm working on this. I talked to Mr. Matthews and I'm looking into a location. However, with renting the location and doing some advertising, it's gonna be a nice investment so I what I'm looking for is to find out how many people would actually drive here to participate.

The zip code is 30120 and the town is Cartersville Georgia so you can mapquest it to see how far away you are.

The timeframe is early December because that's when his schedule is clear. If that's not good let me know and we can discuss moving it into the new year.

Thanks
David
David H. Van Hook
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RE:farrier workshop on improving your horsemanship skills when shoeing a horse 10 Aug 2011 13:07 #17

  • vthorseshoe
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David I can also find time in November if that helps with scheduling.

my 2 cents worth ;)
"you may not like what I say" !
-but-
"you'll never have any doubts where I stand
quote Cindy Matthews 1948-2006


I thought my life had come to a close with Cindy's passing, but there is life after death Thankyou Sharon !

Bruce Matthews
Southeast...
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RE:farrier workshop on improving your horsemanship skills when shoeing a horse 10 Aug 2011 13:13 #18

  • DavidinGA
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vthorseshoe wrote:
David I can also find time in November if that helps with scheduling.

my 2 cents worth ;)


I appreciate the offer but honestly, November is gonna be crazy for me. See I have a 3 yr old and I'm gonna have a newborn by Halloween. It might be kinda hard to get things going with one that's less than a month old. December is possible but November might be stretching it.

David
David H. Van Hook
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RE:farrier workshop on improving your horsemanship skills when shoeing a horse 10 Aug 2011 13:34 #19

  • vthorseshoe
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congratulations on newborn coming....:D

my 2 cents worth ;)
"you may not like what I say" !
-but-
"you'll never have any doubts where I stand
quote Cindy Matthews 1948-2006


I thought my life had come to a close with Cindy's passing, but there is life after death Thankyou Sharon !

Bruce Matthews
Southeast...
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RE:farrier workshop on improving your horsemanship skills when shoeing a horse 10 Aug 2011 14:46 #20

  • MPLdyCop
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How much will the clinic by itself cost? I'll have to factor that in with the travel cost for me.
Kim Turner

www.totalhorsecare.net



Dr. House "You were right, Counts for nothing if you can't defend it."
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RE:farrier workshop on improving your horsemanship skills when shoeing a horse 10 Aug 2011 15:57 #21

  • DavidinGA
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MPLdyCop wrote:
How much will the clinic by itself cost? I'll have to factor that in with the travel cost for me.

That's what I'm trying to figure out. Initial investment is going to be about $1000.00 so I'm trying to see if I'll even be able to get enough people interested to get this within a realistic price range.

I'm also fishing for interest on other forums so, this would have to be a combination (professional and owner) clinic.

David
David H. Van Hook
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RE:farrier workshop on improving your horsemanship skills when shoeing a horse 10 Aug 2011 16:55 #22

  • MPLdyCop
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Alright, thanks. Hope there is a lot of interest.
Kim Turner

www.totalhorsecare.net



Dr. House "You were right, Counts for nothing if you can't defend it."
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RE:farrier workshop on improving your horsemanship skills when shoeing a horse 13 Aug 2011 01:52 #23

  • vthorseshoe
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When considerring this clinic/workshop read the post in "general discussions" titled, My DVD gets raving revues from Michigan State University..

my 2 cents worth ;)
"you may not like what I say" !
-but-
"you'll never have any doubts where I stand
quote Cindy Matthews 1948-2006


I thought my life had come to a close with Cindy's passing, but there is life after death Thankyou Sharon !

Bruce Matthews
Southeast...
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RE:farrier workshop on improving your horsemanship skills when shoeing a horse 13 Aug 2011 03:16 #24

  • Eric Russell
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I saw something in the students section witch I didn't wan to respond to so I figured I respond here.

Bruce, I guess it's great that you can handle a horse and train one. What does this have to do with farriery? Besides what someone should learn in an apprenticeship? We are farriers, we shoe horses. yeah we drift off into veterinary, horsemenship,.... do you really think a farrier needs to learn how to train a horse to stand?

I think you're clinics are a great idea for people who want to learn that aspect of horse handling. I don't understand how you can run a full time business and add hours on the day training horses to stand.
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RE:farrier workshop on improving your horsemanship skills when shoeing a horse 13 Aug 2011 03:49 #25

  • Jack Evers
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May be part of the business, Eric. I work in a limited rural market area where word spreads fast. Faced with a difficult horse, I have three options: 1. walk away, which spreads the word "he can't deal with difficult horses" and hurts my business, 2. fight the horse which is even worse for business and 3. show that I can do well with a difficult horse which helps business. i.e. a few years ago, I got a call from someone with four mustangs. He was honest, he'd been working with them W/O much luck.

I had no real problems, took about half again as long the first time, but he was a loyal customer until he sold the horses and they never were a problem again.

It's not an everyday thing, and after a couple cycles, I have no problem saying "I'll work with difficult horses as long as the situation is getting better, but this isn't getting better". That has never cost me business that I know of.

In my case horse handling helps. In others, possibly yours, it may well be wasted time.
Jack Evers CJF AFA#426

The best things about the good old days -- I wasn't good and I wasn't old.

The older I get, the more horses I shoe, the fewer things that I can absolutely, positively fix.
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RE:farrier workshop on improving your horsemanship skills when shoeing a horse 13 Aug 2011 04:57 #26

  • Mark_Gough
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I'd have to agree with Jack. There is a business aspect to handling the horse.

I'd guess that about 15% of my business started out as "difficult" horses. As Jack pointed out, it's not an everyday effort. The "bad" ones usually get with the program after the first visit or two. Most of the owners become good clients that have added value to my business.

Sometimes being able to handle a difficult horse isn't about just one horse.

Sometimes, it can determine whether you're the guy that gets the whole barn.

Yeah, we're hired to shoe the horse. I get that. Doesn't mean much though if I have to leave the barn empty handed over a few minutes of horsemanship.

I think Bruce might know this particular mare. ;)

http://www.horseshoes.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=459&pictureid=4196

http://www.horseshoes.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=606&pictureid=5579

Cheers,
Mark
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RE:farrier workshop on improving your horsemanship skills when shoeing a horse 13 Aug 2011 06:19 #27

  • Gary Hill
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IMO it comes with the job, horseowners now days are far from Horsemen so to keep your personal safety first, you do need to be able to handle a horse properly. It you are a successfull Farrier with a decent book, you will have the time in a day to correct a horse in no time at all. If not then why are you a Farrier? Alot of people can put a shoe on a horse, but can you help the horse in the long run, that is the million dollar question...:D
"As I see it, winners get the money - while losers talk of "individual goals" and similar stuff." Tom Stovall
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RE:farrier workshop on improving your horsemanship skills when shoeing a horse 13 Aug 2011 13:48 #28

  • Rick Burten
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Gary Hill wrote:
IMO it comes with the job, horseowners now days are far from Horsemen so to keep your personal safety first, you do need to be able to handle a horse properly.
Philosophically, I agree. As a practical matter, I'm not there to train the horse, nor do I want that responsibility.
It you are a successfull Farrier with a decent book, you will have the time in a day to correct a horse in no time at all.
When did the definition of "Farrier" change to include "Trainer"?
If not then why are you a Farrier?
1. To earn a decent living
2. To work as a self-employed, independent contractor
3. To do something I believe I am good at
4. To provide a service to an animal I like to be around(most of the time ;) )
Alot of people can put a shoe on a horse, but can you help the horse in the long run, that is the million dollar question...:D
And that has nothing to do with me training the horse to stand quietly and calmly so that I can provide proper farrier services.

But why stop with training? Do you also provide veterinary/nutrition/stable management/equitation/whatever, services? If not, why not? If so, what qualifies you to do so, do you get paid separately for those services/consultations, do you advertise yourself as all of those, and if not, where are they defined as a part of farriery? Do you carry insurance that will protect/cover you in case of injury to horse/person/property while you are providing non-farriery(by definition) services?

Lets examine a hypothetical situation or three. A horse is being recalcitrant so without written permission from the owner/trainer/agent you use Bruce's harness and apply the methods shown in his CD. The horse struggles against the devise/method and in the course of so doing falls, breaks a leg/damages/injures some other body part/kills itself. Who is responsible, who will be the potential/likely defendant in a law suit, who will suffer damage to his/her reputation, etc?

You apply a twitch/gum chain/what ever. The horse reacts violently, rears, strikes out with its front limb, breaks your arm, strikes its poll on an overhead crossbeam and falls dead at your feet. You either do or do not have Care and Custody Insurance. What do you think the end result in either scenario will be?

In order to successfully complete the farrier services for which you have been retained, you provide ancillary services such as corrections/training and get the job done safely and efficiently. The owner thanks you profusely and even pays you/tips you for those services. The owner now believes the horse is properly/correctly trained and attempts to clean out a hind hoof as you instructed him/her to do. The horse reacts, kicks the owner and severly damages or kills him/her. Who do you believe is going to be held accountable?
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
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RE:farrier workshop on improving your horsemanship skills when shoeing a horse 13 Aug 2011 16:09 #29

  • vthorseshoe
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Rick is "absoluetly correct in his post"....as a warning or caution.

Eric, If everyone has perfect horses to work on then they are in a perfect situation. Unfortunately most farriers aren't privy to such a situation.
So in one form or another almost every farrier will try to get the animal to allow itself to be handled (usually through one of the following in the list below)
NO FARRIER is forced to or under any obligation to train-school- or improve on any horse they work on. Everyone has the opportunity to say no and the ability to move on to a better animal to work with.
If you want to strictly be a farrier then Be a FARRIER....

If I may let me expand on Rick and others thoughts and point out other common working habits that I feel would fall under the exact same points that he has stated.

The following are and have been practices of farriers and under Ricks very clear and exact post (of whichj he is very correct) these would also lead to the same possible legal results.
How many of you have done, used, or seen them done ?

There are farriers who administer drugs without vets there.
There are farriers who use lip chains
There are farriers who jerk on the lead to get its attention to all sorts of varieous degrees
There is the Noval halter that Chris Gregory, Red Retchen and others use and are distributors of.
There are farriers who cross tie an animal and if it gets excited just back away and let it struggle and scramble (how many have broken a cross tie and gotten hurt or fallen over backwards )
There are farriers who hit the animal with rasp or hammer
There are farriers who take the lead from the owner and back the horse up (many times to excess) causeing the horse to get anxious and creating the possibility of an accident.
There are farriers who use their hand or fist to reprimand, or get the horses attention.
There are farriers who yell,holler, scream at a horse to reprimand or get the horses attention.

Each of these can lead to the same legal ramifications that Rick and others are pointing out.

But I believe a person would have to be blatantly negligent to be convicted in court. (anyone can bring a lawsuit into action for any reason, but proving its case is up to the lawyers and court)
You can prick a hoof with a nail and be sued...so under the opinions of others are you just going to glue on shoe's from now on ?

I always ask permission and after doing so explain in depth what the proceedure is and the possible reactions of the animal being worked on.
IF the owner seems reluctant or says no, then end of conversation and I will usually tell them politely they will need to hire another farrier.
I also have a very lengthy track record using this system and many many customers and farriers who have used or allowed me or others to use this system have expressed verbally and in written form the success OR improvement of animals when my system is employed properly.
But since we are working with ANIMALS, there is no way to always predict an animals responce to anything we do, and I make sure I point this out to everyone I work with...

I ALWAYS explain that my system only works if the owner or farrier continues what I have taught them so the animal recieves clear signals it has been taught.
Those not following the instructions i have shown can expect their animal to revert back to its previous state .
I also explain that a small amount of animals need schooling and it is usually in most cases the person handling or attempting to handle the animal who need the training to work succesfully and safely with their horses.

I always go to length in explaining how to use my system when a farrier show as an interest. I also strongly suggest using the system on an complacent animal that already picks up its legs so you can practice and become comfortable with the system prior to using it on an animal that will or may need it to learn to stand.

If you want to just shoe and never correct an animal (with the owners permission of course) then that is JUST what you should do ....
If you can always work on horses that are super to work on then you are either very lucky or have very few clients.
ALSO since animals are totally unpredictable, when this perfect animal you work on becomes upset or scared or urully for a number of possible reasons, according to what I have read, you all will just pack your tools and walk away...

I advocate and feel I teach a MUCH different approach than the above.

So we all have to decide to what length our interaction with horses and customers will be.

Rick and others who have stated similar thoughts are giving you CLEAR and PRECISE opinions from experience and at this point it becomes a decision each person needs to make from the available information.

It is VERY GOOD that Rick and others bring these points to the fore front so everyone can make a logical and sensible decision on the course they, as individuals will take.
Thankyou Rick...
"you may not like what I say" !
-but-
"you'll never have any doubts where I stand
quote Cindy Matthews 1948-2006


I thought my life had come to a close with Cindy's passing, but there is life after death Thankyou Sharon !

Bruce Matthews
Southeast...
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RE:farrier workshop on improving your horsemanship skills when shoeing a horse 13 Aug 2011 16:23 #30

  • Gary Hill
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Rick, I never said train..I said handle, in my past I handled or wrangled a whole lot of differant species..I wasnt a Trainer but could get alot of them to do things I needed them to do as their keeper..:D
"As I see it, winners get the money - while losers talk of "individual goals" and similar stuff." Tom Stovall
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