That other threead got me thinking that maybe we should have a thread where some of the experienced farriers could let folks know what they're looking for in a helper.

I'll just list what I think some of the basics are and see where it goes.

In regard to pay...education costs so if you're taking someone's time and/or costing them money, it's you who owes them.

Aside from polite appropriate conversation, keep your mouth shut around clients. Let the boss handle all the business talk. I think questions or comments regarding the days work are fine. That's how you learn but it's not for the client to hear.

The exception to the "keep your mouth shut" rule is when you're instructed to do something. If you're not clear on what or how, ask. It's better than doing it wrong. "Wrong" is everything that the boss doesn't want.

Closely related to that is how you take instruction and criticism. It doesn't help to be defensive. If you already know everything, you won't learn anything and you're wasting everybody's time. Some bosses might be better teachers than others but this is where the right attitude and effort will enable you to really take advantage of the boss's experience. If you're able to learn what's being taught, it can make your work better, easier and make you a lot of money over the years.

Try to learn the truck and the routine. As soon as the truck stops, go to work getting everything set up and ready without being asked. That's not as easy as it sounds because we're always changing our trucks around and not every stop or job is the same. Still, try to be one step ahead of the boss. If the boss has to go schmooze the client over a cup of coffee, try real hard to have things set up and ready for work when he gets back.

No job is too trivial. When you're not at work under a horse look for things that need to be done...sweep, organize tools, get stuff ready for the next horse or whatever. By all means ask what should be done next or even offer to do what the boss is doing. You're there to help and you're not going to be assigned the more advanced tasks unless you are interested and capable.

Personalities and communication skills can make some of this harder than it sounds so you have to try to learn the boss (and yourself) like you have to learn the truck but keep trying.

A lot of self employed people are highly motivated and care a great deal about what they do. You have to be just as concerned about quality and profitability. Nobody will pay you money to have a flippant attitude toward something that's so important to them.

The boss is probably older and more beat up than you, so if he isn't tired, neither are you. I don't mean that you should hurt yourself doing something silly. If you have to set a foot down to straighten up for a minute, do it, but nobody wants to hear you whine.

Well, I guess those are some of my thoughts on it.

i couldnt agree more with everything you said there mike. im coming to the end of my apprenticeship and im at a point now where i can help get the horses done quicker and make my boss more money. so in turn he pays me a percentage of what he makes everyday. but like you said when i first started out i felt like i should be paying him for the extra time he spent teaching me and going slower.

but i think you pretty well covered everything. keep your mouth shut, always have the tools ready and be thankful you found someone to take the time to teach you.

Good topic........and one that needs to be view by anyone looking to work with another farrier........1. Set the truck up .fill water buckets. Get tool boxes off the truck while the farrier is chating the client..and when done wait by the rig don't be walking around nor following the farrier and client while talking...more than likely they talking about you anyway and takein bets on how long you will last... 2.while by rig be cleaning it up or picking out old nails in tool oe old hoof clipings or putting oil on the tools until ur told what horse to get....3 .. pull shoes and find a set that the farrier can shape ..and mark the shoe lateral while the farrier is trimming the foot...and put the shoes in the fire for when the farrier walks back he is ready to shape shoes... 4..while farrier is shapin shoes clean up under the horse and get ready for farrier to burn shoes on..5.. when farrier is burnning grab the fan and hold it where blows smoke out of farrier and horse face..6. Stay out of way and just watch while farrier grinds and nails up shoes ..but when farrier nailing on shoes keep broom handy and keep the fan where its blowing on farrier.. around this part offer to get the farrier a water..or what ever he drinks....7 repeat this all over on hind feet..notes to add...things that always can be done when down time do to farrier doing something else.....clean out tool box..clean rig and clean it good...sweep floor...oil tools...orgnize shoes...whip down grinders and drills...always something can be done..on the flip side of this if in 2 months ur not getting to do more with the horse AND you have mastered pulling and clinching to the point you never need help with that part...you may wanna start looking for more than just the one guy to work with...don't be used as a plow mule your there to learn and that means hands on ...you can watch anyone work...

very good suggestions listed above. I will add just a few cause its been covered well.
1)Turn your dang cell phone off. I can't tell you how many times I have not needed anything and then when I DO need something the fool is on the phone walking around somewhere.
2) a heck of a lot can be learned in the truck to and from. Ask questions and talk about farrier stuff, I got enough friends as it is, its hard to teach someone when all they seem interested in talking about is themselves or personal drama.
3) Don't complain.
4) Learn your anatomy. Or I am not going to go on to letting you do other stuff. Anatomy is the foundation of it all. Its not something you can skim over. If I give you a book to study. Study it till you know it front to back, then GIVE ME BACK MY BOOK. They are expensive. And I will give you the next book grasshoppah.
5) If you ask me to let you borrow money, you better pay me back. And within a reasonable amount of time.
6) Eat sleep and breathe horseshoeing. We are not planning the last stop around the fact that you want to go chase some trashy girl around town cause you think your in love.
7) don't be late, or you'll be left
If your sick or hurt or have a broken leg suck it up and quit whining.
9) If you are getting paid, don't act like its beneath you to wash my rig. And no I don't have to help you do it, I am going inside the house. I overpaid you for the little bit of nothing you did today anyway.
10) If we are done working and I say, you want to build some shoes, and you say, naw its too hot I'm gonna split, that tells me that you don't give a darn.
11) If you don't act like you want to learn then I will quit trying to help you. Don't ever say "I know" you don't know. You think you know but if you knew then I wouldn't have to tell you. check your attitude. Don't debate with me, I don't care what someone else told you, they were wrong. Wanna know why you are stuck doing the same thing every day?
12) don't try to impress the horse owners by bragging on yourself or talking about your horse experiences, you make yourself look like a fool.

Man that number 12 is spot on.....I have had only one or two that did not feel the need to tell the client how great they where...and those 2 where the ones who had room to self promote.....and for the love of all thhats good don't go give the client a card and tell them if they need anything like a pulled shoe to just call.......I had this one happen to me and it was done while I LOADED the trailer...would have never known if the client had not called me after I left and told me it was done and not to bring him back....and seeing how the card passing was not a don't come back no no ..I still wonder what creeped her out to the point of don't bring him back...what ever was done could have cost me a 30 head stop...

Travis Reed wrote:
some guys just LOOK like the wrong sort and project a bad vibe. Like they just got out of rehab or slept under a bridge the night before. If they don't have anything else going for them then they should atleast dress decent, tuck the shirt in, wear clean clothes etc. And if they can't talk without sounding like a convict then they should keep quiet

you guys crack me up! i have only ever had one helper for one day ever. he did as i asked and kept his mouth closed. i had no complaints. i've been getting called quite frequently this year by dudes who want to tag along, though most of em fit in the convict catagory and i would feel terrible if something ever came up missing so i think i will maybe wait em out.

i did get called by one kid who finished up his first year at Jeff Englers school in Walla Walla and he seems decent. i might give him a shot at getting dirty.

I have already posted somewhere on this forum about
helper/apprentices and "McJobs".
I don't know where it is at in the thrreads.
But I have a list:
1. unload the truck
2. if you don't say anything it is a good day,
at some point I will ask you for imput to see if your
smarted than a turnip green
3. sweep even if you don't think it needs to be swept yet
4. don't make the horse hurt me while you sweep or bring me stuff
5. I like coffee, make dang sure we have some
6. if your tried that is good if I'm tired that is bad
7. sweep again
8. load the truck, I really don't like to wait on leaving
9. yes, we will eat after we are finished. Do you not see how big I am?
10. I don't care if your sore, tired, sleepy, have problems, are hungry, or have seen anything like we are working on at the time.
11. Yes, when you can contribute I pay extremely well.
12.When you have been under about a thousand I will let you shoe a show horse.
13. If your shoeing an I tell you "I can live with it" "get us another one" your pretty close to being pretty dang handy.

Mike Ferrara wrote:
I think this is a great rule for us (the farriers) too.

I reckon that at least 20% of my book I have because I keep my ####ing mouth shut, irrespective of my skills (or lack thereof )... at least half of those wouldn't know if I'm a good farrier or not.

Farriers are infamous for being inveterate gossips and people appreciate a zippered lip.

Just today a client shared some commercially sensitive information, and a discussion on it, only because she knew it would go no further. I got the impression that was more valuable in terms of a long term relationship than what I was doing with the feet.

Travis Reed wrote:
I can't believe how some people have no scruples ! I have a friend who is always getting side jobs ( we're both electricians; and he's also a plumber.) I was working on one of his side jobs when the owner of the nail salon asked me how much I charge ! I told her I work for Riske and I don't take work from him. She told me she was asking for a friend of her's. I told her it doesn't matter. I don't compete against Riske. Riske can do her friends' work also.

Frank van Dalen

If you mess something up don't try to hide it.

IE if you shear the end off a pritchel it isn't really a big deal unless I find myself short on time and have to fix it unexpectedly while the forge is already going. (ask me why I mention it )

This goes along with the "keeping your mouth shut" part but don't insult people's horses. Even you think you're not being insulting, owners get sensitive about their 'big **** Appaloosas' or 'screwball Arabians'. (Just using the stereotypes as an example.)

Even if you think someone's horse is junk on four legs, keep the negative stuff to yourself, or the farrier or owner won't be too proud of having you around.

Don't put the farrier in position of having to answer a question that would make the owner look bad. If you see something that was probably caused by a negligent owner, then ask about it in the truck.

And in between keeping your mouth shut, remember to be polite.

As an apprentice, I try to keep up with all the lists you guys have already provided, but this is stuff I keep in mind as well.

On the "keep your mouth shut" thing, there are a lot of aspects there that you need to keep in mind.

Don't talk to the clients. Small talk is OK but don't ever discuss their horses, their shoeing, or their way of moving. For that matter just don't talk about horses. A lot of people feel very stongly about certain things just as you most likely do. The last thing your mentor needs is for you to spout off about how ugly the movement of a peticular breed is. Most likely their sister/mother/father/brother is going to be a breeder of that sorry looking breed. After a while you will learn who you can and cannot talk freely around but even then, keep your opinions to yourself.

Don't try to show up the boss. This doesn't mean that you can't do something better or faster than him/her, just don't gloat about it. In a perfect world that would be the goal of any teacher, to teach a student until they are better than themselves. If you find yourself in that situation, then its time for you to find another mentor not brag about how much better you are.

I once found myself in a situation where I was working with a friend and the customer commented on how much nicer my finish work was than my friends and it made things a little akward for a while, I can only imagine what it would have been like if I was the one to say it.

Also, don't be overly eager. I think I'd cut off my own foot with a old hot rasp before taking on an apprentice like Kim. There are a lot of things that are just going to be too far over your head at first. Trying to learn the "advanced" stuff right away will only distract you from getting the basics right. Focus on the basics, you will get to the more advanced stuff eventually. In any case, even the advanced stuff is about meticulous attention to detail with a coule little twists anyway.

And if you want to spend a day in the forge, chip in for propane.

When it comes to being an apprentice it's best to just shut up and color. Speak only when spoken to, be one step ahead of the farrier, and be eager to learn. Do things the way you are taught and don't argue. The quieter you are the more time there is to listen.

Joey Aczon wrote:
Okay, i'm asking!