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TOPIC: Help/apprentice

RE:Help/apprentice 16 Jul 2011 10:50 #31

  • Frank de Crank
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Gary Hill wrote:
As all of us at one time or another, someone has said,"teach me how to trim my horses hoofs?" So I tell them to pay me $15,000 and I will take them with me for a year and teach them to trim, they dont ask again???:cool:

Glad not all feel the way you do ! I started doing my own trimming. I knew what a hoof should look like and just rasped off the excess. :-) Then a guy who lived around here and advertised he was the head instructor at the Oklahoma farrier school (or was that college ?) for fifteen years was kind enough to show me a little of the ins and outs of shoeing. I paid him for shoeing my horse and he told me the how and why of what he was doing. After about the third time he told me I was on my own. Since then I've gone to school and become a certified farrier.



Frank van Dalen
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RE:Help/apprentice 16 Jul 2011 12:03 #32

  • Rick Burten
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Frank de Crank wrote:
Glad not all feel the way you do ! I started doing my own trimming. I knew what a hoof should look like and just rasped off the excess. :-) Then a guy who lived around here and advertised he was the head instructor at the Oklahoma farrier school (or was that college ?) for fifteen years was kind enough to show me a little of the ins and outs of shoeing. I paid him for shoeing my horse and he told me the how and why of what he was doing. After about the third time he told me I was on my own.
So, after watching someone else shoe your horse three times, you were considered by that individual [and yourself] knowledgeable and skilled enough to trim and shoe your own horses? Since that time, how many horses have you regularly trimmed and/or shod?

Is 'Frand de Crank' your real name?
Since then I've gone to school and become a certified farrier.
Where did you go to school and with which organization and at what level are you certified?

I apologize in advance for asking these questions but on several occasions you have brought the subject(s) into play and its time to settle the dust.
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
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RE:Help/apprentice 16 Jul 2011 12:18 #33

  • Gary Hill
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What sounds really strange is a guy that is in the business of teaching students at a school would give you a pass??:confused:
"As I see it, winners get the money - while losers talk of "individual goals" and similar stuff." Tom Stovall
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RE:Help/apprentice 16 Jul 2011 12:52 #34

  • Travis Reed
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George Geist wrote:
Travis,
To the best of my understanding most of the European countries governments subsidize their training. 'Nuther words if the master's training program meets the approved criteria he receives payment from the government to train apprentices.

A good friend of mine from Sweden has that deal even though he lives and works in the US.
George

Thanks George......lmao...no wonder smitty don't worry about the money when he takes on a lad.... it always baffles me when people say they don't worry about the money end of things...just because one loves what they do does not need to feel any gilt for making money off it and from it at every turn..they say make a living doing what you love and have passion for and you will do well in ur ventures
Travis Reed.....


www.sporthorsefarrier.com to direct link..
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RE:Help/apprentice 16 Jul 2011 13:10 #35

  • dana fenn
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Travis Reed wrote:
Thanks George......lmao...no wonder smitty don't worry about the money when he takes on a lad.... it always baffles me when people say they don't worry about the money end of things...just because one loves what they do does not need to feel any gilt for making money off it and from it at every turn..they say make a living doing what you love and have passion for and you will do well in ur ventures

:eek: **DUCKING**

and getting out of the line of fire!
Live your life in such a way, that when your feet hit the floor in the morning,
Satan shudders and says "Oh, No, she's Awake!"
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RE:Help/apprentice 16 Jul 2011 13:47 #36

  • Travis Reed
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dana fenn wrote:
:eek: **DUCKING**

and getting out of the line of fire!

Really maybe you would like to share with us ur thoughts and why you are ..ducking.. by this statement I take you do not worry about the money end of things yourself
Travis Reed.....


www.sporthorsefarrier.com to direct link..
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RE:Help/apprentice 16 Jul 2011 14:08 #37

  • dana fenn
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Travis Reed wrote:
Really maybe you would like to share with us ur thoughts and why you are ..ducking.. by this statement I take you do not worry about the money end of things yourself

I only wish i didn't worry about money, Travis, just like the rest of you. *smile*

I smile when i hear you guys on this board always say "It Depends" because it reminds me of Kurt who i help with the Clydes. he's originally from Switzerland.

I've been around horses and farriers since i could walk and yet he STILL has the ability to make me feel like a "newbie"

His favorite line to use on me is "It Doesn't Matter" ;)

which came to mind when i read your post.



Live your life in such a way, that when your feet hit the floor in the morning,
Satan shudders and says "Oh, No, she's Awake!"
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RE:Help/apprentice 16 Jul 2011 14:31 #38

  • Dogwood Forge
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I have worked an apprentice a bit over the last several years and have worked one more this year than ever before. When thinking about how you pay help you really need to know what it costs, what are the benefits, and how it affects your buisness. I love what I do and if I were to have a rich uncle die and leave me millions I would still shoe horses, all be it a little different, but I shoe horses now as a buisness because the bank says I can't live here unless I send them money. One of my goals for my career is to pass this trade on to someone along the way, if not several someones. That being said I can't just throw money away because I wanted to train someone. Things have to stay in balance.

If you will do some diging you will find that an employee needs to generate 4 to 5 times their income to be worth hiring. That means that if you are paying a guy $50/day then you need to be making $200 to $250 more per day for it to be worth it. For a five day week that is an extra $1,000 to $1,250 per week. Also, I don't think many farriers realize what it cost to do buisness and what the difference is between their Gross and Net profits. The average farrier buisness only nets about 33% of their gross. i.e. If you grossed $1,000.00 a day you really only net an average of $333.00 a day. This changes up and down a bit depending but it is a fairly good average. Armed with this information it is interesting to me that there are guys paying their apprentices 20% of the days take. That means the guy that is helping you is making about 10% more than you and he didn't have to buy the first shoe, or gallon of diseal for the truck. Paying a guy 20% wouldn't work for me at all right now but I could possibly see how that may work for someone that was a good bit older and wanted to keep shoeing, didn't have a lot of debt, and couldn't take the physical pace they could when they were 20years younger.

The physical part is another area to consider. We don't shoe horses behind a desk in the airconditioning. Working help means you don't bend over as much, or work quite as hard which means you last longer. You have to figure out for yourself what that is worth to you.

One other thing that I have observed is that I think that quite a few guys have been spoiled by paying them to much. I have had guys that I paid to much and they ended up with this attitude like I owed them something. They lost their drive and hunger for this trade. The guys that I paid less seemed to stay more humble and maintained their passion for the trade. I've worked guys that were there just to make a check and they never work for long. I won't the ones that are working to learn a trade. Those are the ones that will make it in the long run anyway.
Chip Crumbly CJF, AWCF
http://www.georgiafarriers.org/
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RE:Help/apprentice 16 Jul 2011 23:36 #39

for what it's worth here's a bit of my story as a helper:
i have worked for several different horse shoers over the last 6 years. i started by asking my friend who has a hitch of clydes to teach me since he shoes his own and maybe another dozen other drafts. for about 4 years steady i was helping him whenever he worked on his horses (for free obviously). if we did a few for some one else he'd give me one shoeing's worth of pay.....and that's draft pay ;) but i also realize he wasn't crazy about taxes and only does it on the side ;)

another shoer i tagged along with during my off duty days from the coast guard treating me really well also, paying me anywhere from 100 to 200 a day. he would really pack the days with horses so it must of worked for him.

i now work full time (started 6 months ago) for a guy that started me at $150 day. i also get some trims on the weekend from him and have about a dozen of my own customers. he also has good prices and does nice work... he makes my pay within the first 30 to 45 minutes of the day.

i guess i have it pretty good! i guess it helped that i came into it knowing a little bit (just enough to be dangerous) and fully expect to work for him for 5 or 6 years to get the most out of him ;)
Jason Armstrong

"Another thousand horses"
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RE:Help/apprentice 16 Jul 2011 23:38 #40

i guess i should add that with me they get a diesel mechanic that can fix their trucks and i shave everyday ;)
Jason Armstrong

"Another thousand horses"
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RE:Help/apprentice 17 Jul 2011 01:36 #41

  • Travis Reed
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dieselfarmer wrote:
i guess i should add that with me they get a diesel mechanic that can fix their trucks and i shave everyday ;)

Like most farriers..if I get along with a guy and have fun all day and I don't have to worry about him running his meat holster to a client about something silly...or try and pick up on the girls..and he treats them the way he would his momma...and he treat the kids like he would his own child..not spit on the floor..so on and so forth and then I can make money with him...I then have no problem paying a wage one can be proud of....dieselfarmer you may be just that kind of guy...and one who truly loves being under horses..
Travis Reed.....


www.sporthorsefarrier.com to direct link..
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RE:Help/apprentice 17 Jul 2011 15:20 #42

  • Mike Ferrara
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I guess I was really lucky. When I was a kid I went to work at a barn that was owned y a farrier. I mucked stalls and did all manor of other barn work for money and shod horses for free in exchange for the training. I had a well equipped shop and 20+ head of livery horses to practice on. Eventually, I stepped into shoeing the boarding and training horses and then I got paid.

I had a couple of guys work for me many years ago. One was an experienced farrier that was new to the area. I took him on because I was swamped with work. He wasn't just helping but shoeing horses. We used my truck and materials and, of course, I was the guy responsible for the work. I paid him half what I billed the client for the work he did...if we each did an equal amount that would come to 25% of the day's gross.

The other was a new guy just out of school and that didn't work out so well. He wanted to get paid a bunch of money but he wasn't good for much other than sweeping the floor.

Aside from my own work, I work one account with the guy who originally got me started. It's the same sort of deal...I throw my shoeing box and hoof stand in his truck and I get 25%.
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RE:Help/apprentice 17 Jul 2011 15:28 #43

  • Mike Ferrara
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Having been on both sides of this, I don't know why anybody would expect to get paid to learn unless the employer is making money on the work. Education costs money.

My last thought is that a lot of new folks don't seem to know how to be "helpers". Maybe that's worth a new thread?
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RE:Help/apprentice 17 Jul 2011 15:38 #44

Why can't there ever be any opportunities in New England :confused:
I would be on your doorstep tomorrow if I could. :)



I need help here in Maine. Why dont you give me a call to discuss.
207-713-0813
George Spear
CNBBT, CNBF, CLS


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CA. 1700

"What people do not appreciate is that every time a horse submits to...
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RE:Help/apprentice 17 Jul 2011 18:03 #45

  • MPLdyCop
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Mike only in a perfect world.

If I had more funds, I'd attend Chris Gregory's school. If I didn't have my children, I'd take off somewhere and ask for a stall to sleep in and be fed in exchange for the work.

It's understandable that education should be paid for, but not everyone can. I've paid all that I can toward the education part.

Despite all these obstacles, I'm not ready to give up.
Kim Turner

www.totalhorsecare.net



Dr. House "You were right, Counts for nothing if you can't defend it."
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