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TOPIC: Help/apprentice

Help/apprentice 13 Jul 2011 02:41 #1

I dont know how often people read the classifieds but I am looking for a helper. I live in eastern Ontario and can use someone at least 4 days a week. they must have some previous training and it is primarily sport horses.
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RE:Help/apprentice 13 Jul 2011 02:57 #2

  • MPLdyCop
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Wish you were further down south. :)
Kim Turner

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Dr. House "You were right, Counts for nothing if you can't defend it."
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RE:Help/apprentice 13 Jul 2011 04:14 #3

  • Travis Reed
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TOMMY MACFARLANE wrote:
I dont know how often people read the classifieds but I am looking for a helper. I live in eastern Ontario and can use someone at least 4 days a week. they must have some previous training and it is primarily sport horses.

Good luck with that...you about have to beg folks to work and even then they seem lazy... most think go to school and then they set after a 8 week school...
Travis Reed.....


www.sporthorsefarrier.com to direct link..
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RE:Help/apprentice 13 Jul 2011 12:47 #4

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Travis Reed wrote:
Good luck with that...you about have to beg folks to work and even then they seem lazy... most think go to school and then they set after a 8 week school...

IF there was someone who could pay me even just minimum wage to help out or some flat rate like $50 a day I'd be in heaven. I can't work for free unfortunately because of bills. I still am trying to find people for a day here and there not paid in the mean time.

It's really tough to do what's right. As in just apprentice because of money. I don't mind the work, I like it. lol
Kim Turner

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RE:Help/apprentice 13 Jul 2011 14:31 #5

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TOMMY MACFARLANE wrote:
I dont know how often people read the classifieds but I am looking for a helper. I live in eastern Ontario and can use someone at least 4 days a week. they must have some previous training and it is primarily sport horses.

It would be a bit difficult for a yankee to go to Canada. They have better control of their borders than the US. does. If you were closer I'd jump at the chance. I went to school and am waiting on a job for my last hoorah as an electrician before I retire and do what I want. I need a bit of capital to get started. I won't have to bust my butt. I just enjoy shoeing. I may be a lot older than most of you, but I'm physically fit enough to do what I like for a few more years if I don't get hurt.

Frank



Frank van Dalen
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RE:Help/apprentice 13 Jul 2011 16:30 #6

  • Karen B.
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Why can't there ever be any opportunities in New England :confused:
I would be on your doorstep tomorrow if I could. :)













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RE:Help/apprentice 14 Jul 2011 04:23 #7

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MPLdyCop wrote:
IF there was someone who could pay me even just minimum wage to help out or some flat rate like $50 a day I'd be in heaven. I can't work for free unfortunately because of bills. I still am trying to find people for a day here and there not paid in the mean time.

It's really tough to do what's right. As in just apprentice because of money. I don't mind the work, I like it. lol

A full time helper for $50 bucks a day? That's a bargain by any measure! You shouldn't have any trouble finding that kind of work.

Cheers,
Mark
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RE:Help/apprentice 14 Jul 2011 12:11 #8

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Mark_Gough wrote:
A full time helper for $50 bucks a day? That's a bargain by any measure! You shouldn't have any trouble finding that kind of work.

Cheers,
Mark

I have one that I pay that mark...but it ain't no bargin..although he has never been to school...he pulls and clinches he slows me down and it cost me money to work him...my hope is that I could get him far enough along to make money off him...he has a chance to go with another farrier friend and he will pay him 100 a day...for this farrier he will drive ..sweep and pull shoes..so now I will loose him for a week while he goes out of town...now. I feel like I have wasted my time...although my pay is lower to him my work was steady and pay would go up as money could be made off the guy...when he gets back next week I'm sure he thinks he will pick up where he left off with me but that's not gonna happen...so I might as well have thrown that time and money out the window.....I have one guy that I pay 20percent of the days take...he makes around 140 to 200 a day now but he was willing to stick it out untill he could learn enough to make money....only he can't work full time because he is a vet tec at the clinic.... so see I found the 50 bucks a day is and was a waste but the guy makin 20 percent is a deal to me...
Travis Reed.....


www.sporthorsefarrier.com to direct link..
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RE:Help/apprentice 14 Jul 2011 13:12 #9

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Travis, are you saying the $50 a day guy didn't try to work hard because that was all he made? And the percentage guy pulled his weight because time was money?

I'd work as hard as I could for the $50 mainly because the $50 is just to keep me from starving and the work is my education. But I'm sure the reason guys don't jump on that is because I'd slow some down. Not outta laziness but because I'm still learning and am slow.

Oh, and I'd only be part time too because I can't let go of the city job. $50 a day would only work with keeping the part time city job to make up the rest of the income.
Kim Turner

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Dr. House "You were right, Counts for nothing if you can't defend it."
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RE:Help/apprentice 14 Jul 2011 14:16 #10

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Travis Reed wrote:
I have one that I pay that mark...but it ain't no bargin..although he has never been to school...he pulls and clinches he slows me down and it cost me money to work him...my hope is that I could get him far enough along to make money off him...

Travis, while I completely understand your point I have a different view of a "helper".

In short, I would not take on a helper with any expectation of making more money for myself. That could only happen if we serviced more horses per day. I schedule clients well in advance and typically have a fixed number of clients per day to work on. Taking on an apprentice would not change that.

I view a helper/apprentice as temporary. The helper will eventually want to move on with their own business. If I had taken on additional clients presuming the helper would support the additional workload, I would have no way to manage those clients once the helper moved on.

Perhaps the reason for our different views is the intent. If the intent was to grow your business via a larger clientele, then a "helper" becomes a permanent investment that must earn their keep and provide a return on that investment. If the intent is to give a young person a hand up in the learning process then the best we can hope for is that the cost of the helper makes our day a bit easier and that they learn something along the way.

The discussion goes to the heart of apprenticeship opportunities in this country. Working farriers argue that a few months of school isn't enough to qualify the student as ready to begin a business. They should apprentice with someone after school. We also argue that it takes years to learn this trade (and it does!). In contrast to that need, an apprentice can't be expected to work for years with zero income.

The only reasonable solution is that the working farrier either subsidizes the cost out of his/her own pocket, settling for a reduced workload in the exchange and presuming only occasional, short-term apprentice participation or... the working farrier adds additional clients to the business, increasing revenue to cover the helpers salary. That means you'll need a steady stream of apprentices to manage the increased workload. Probably not a good business model as the apprentice skill level will vary widely and may or may not support that increased clientele.
he has a chance to go with another farrier friend and he will pay him 100 a day...for this farrier he will drive ..sweep and pull shoes..so now I will loose him for a week while he goes out of town...now.

If you had a chance to double your pay for less work would you do it? It's only a week and gives the helper a chance to learn a bit more from someone else. Seems a good opportunity for the helper.
I feel like I have wasted my time...although my pay is lower to him my work was steady and pay would go up as money could be made off the guy...

Why do you feel you have wasted your time? He was learning from you and making money while doing it. After only one week he'll be back and continue to learn. Did you hire him to give a hand up to someone or are you trying to build a multi-farrier business? If the latter, I understand your frustration but would ask, did you make it clear to your helper that you viewed his position as a permanent business relationship with growth potential for both of you?
when he gets back next week I'm sure he thinks he will pick up where he left off with me but that's not gonna happen...

Why? What did he do wrong?
so I might as well have thrown that time and money out the window.....I have one guy that I pay 20percent of the days take...he makes around 140 to 200 a day now but he was willing to stick it out untill he could learn enough to make money....only he can't work full time because he is a vet tec at the clinic.... so see I found the 50 bucks a day is and was a waste but the guy makin 20 percent is a deal to me...

Average vet-tech salary is less than $25,000 per year. That's about $12/hr. If he can earn $17 to $25 per hour working for you, why is he keeping the vet-tech job?

If $140-$200 is 20% of the days total revenue, then $50 per day would represent 5 to 7 percent of that same total revenue. The $50/day person, presuming even a minimum of skill, is still the bargain helper.

Cheers,
Mark
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RE:Help/apprentice 14 Jul 2011 15:10 #11

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Mark we deff see it diff asone would need a helper....if I can't put more money in my pocket off one then why would I want that headache.... if my helper can't get me more horses thru the rack then I will just do it alone....I don't see it as making it easier during my day...it takes about 5min to snatch shoes off and another 10 to clinch....I work out of a box truck so I only unload a tool and a fan.....for the most part they bring me the horse...so what good is a helper gonna do if he don't stick with it and wanna learn and catch the over flow....my 11 year old will clean the rig for 5 bucks..I see no reason for a helper ubless money is gonna be made..I guess if like ya said you wanna just pass what you know on to the next guy...personly I think 50 bucks a day AKA 10percent of the take is a deal for the helper...school is high and as you see kim is havein a hard time finding a free gig much less a paying gig....................the reason helper will not have a job when he comes back is for the very reason you said....I line work up and don't need someone who jumps up and runs off for the fast buck.....he stays with me 5 days a week..sleeps in my house ..we feed him..and he uses my showers......and my work is steady ..5 to 6 days a week for him then I use the other guy......he will make a extra 250 while on the road yes but he buys his own eats and its hit or miss...the guy laid him off 3 weeks is why I put him to work but I gotta find a steady person..he knows his work is steady with me so I don't feel its my place to tell him to look at long and hard before he decides if the extra money is worth it in the long run..
Travis Reed.....


www.sporthorsefarrier.com to direct link..
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RE:Help/apprentice 14 Jul 2011 15:20 #12

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Travis Reed wrote:
Mark we deff see it diff asone would need a helper....if I can't put more money in my pocket off one then why would I want that headache.... if my helper can't get me more horses thru the rack then I will just do it alone....I don't see it as making it easier during my day...it takes about 5min to snatch shoes off and another 10 to clinch....I work out of a box truck so I only unload a tool and a fan.....for the most part they bring me the horse...so what good is a helper gonna do if he don't stick with it and wanna learn and catch the over flow....my 11 year old will clean the rig for 5 bucks..I see no reason for a helper ubless money is gonna be made..I guess if like ya said you wanna just pass what you know on to the next guy...personly I think 50 bucks a day AKA 10percent of the take is a deal for the helper...school is high and as you see kim is havein a hard time finding a free gig much less a paying gig....................the reason helper will not have a job when he comes back is for the very reason you said....I line work up and don't need someone who jumps up and runs off for the fast buck.....he stays with me 5 days a week..sleeps in my house ..we feed him..and he uses my showers......and my work is steady ..5 to 6 days a week for him then I use the other guy......he will make a extra 250 while on the road yes but he buys his own eats and its hit or miss...the guy laid him off 3 weeks is why I put him to work but I gotta find a steady person..he knows his work is steady with me so I don't feel its my place to tell him to look at long and hard before he decides if the extra money is worth it in the long run..

Makes Sense Travis. Just be fair and make sure the young lad understands your expectations and the problem caused if he takes off a week on another gig. Then the choice becomes his.

If you're providing room & board, he's getting more than $50 a day. Cost of living isn't free and a bunk/food/shower probably adds another $50 a day in value.

Cheers,
Mark
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RE:Help/apprentice 14 Jul 2011 19:53 #13

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MPLdyCop wrote:
Travis, are you saying the $50 a day guy didn't try to work hard because that was all he made? And the percentage guy pulled his weight because time was money?

I'd work as hard as I could for the $50 mainly because the $50 is just to keep me from starving and the work is my education. But I'm sure the reason guys don't jump on that is because I'd slow some down. Not outta laziness but because I'm still learning and am slow.

Oh, and I'd only be part time too because I can't let go of the city job. $50 a day would only work with keeping the part time city job to make up the rest of the income.

Na kim because he is really on 10 percent of the take...I usta pay 20percent to all who work but what I found was we where only doing 500 a day and the dang help was happy and making money and learning how to shoe and I was the one paying the price..I can do 500 to 650 by myself with not really have to work to bad hard...I usally stop for the day when I hit 500....now if I have help and they can't help me get 800 a day they stay at 10 percent....when we can hit 800 a day on a reg basis I move then to 15percent and when we can hit 1k on a reg basis they go to 20percent.....I feel like I'm a fair guy..to fair at times....also I rather have a person that has never been to school or atleast learn what I like and I do not care how you did it with whom ever or at school......when we get on site unload the boxes..fans and fill the water then wait for me to tell what horse to start pulling shoes....then while I'm under the horse sweep and keep truck clean....its that simple...and I let my help move pretty fast if they show they wanna learn...I have them trimming in a week or 2...then nailing ...but first you gotta master shoe pulling and clinching and running the broom..after you show you can do that we start trimming then nailing then shaping shoes....my guy I like the best its nice to have him bring me the shoe I shap new ones then burn them on and grind...then I throw them to him as he is pulling shoes off the next horse...I don't mind paying for that kind of help
Travis Reed.....


www.sporthorsefarrier.com to direct link..
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RE:Help/apprentice 14 Jul 2011 20:38 #14

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i never really look at it from the money point of view
maybe i have it all wrong.
Smitty88
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RE:Help/apprentice 14 Jul 2011 20:48 #15

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smitty88 wrote:
i never really look at it from the money point of view
maybe i have it all wrong.

Naa you don't. Have it wrong...I'm sure everyone in your area would just love for you to shoe for free....I plant flowers..I work in the garden..I cut my grass..I go to auctions...I sit in the shade and watch the chickin peck because that's what I like to do...make no bones about it I shoe for money ...just because one shoes for money does not mean I don't do the best I can what ever that might be..profit is not a sin and should not be treated like one...
Travis Reed.....


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