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Monday August 8, 2022
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TOPIC: Dr. J.M. Denoix

RE:Dr. J.M. Denoix 08 Sep 2010 02:00 #16

thanks guys
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RE:Dr. J.M. Denoix 08 Sep 2010 06:34 #17

docsam03 wrote:
Mr. Alders,

With you being an advocate of the rocker/banana shoe concept surely you had the opportunity to discuss this with Denoix? If I understand correctly what your are portraying, I tend to agree that without healtly digital alignment, which should correlate to the horse using his body differently, it is hard to keep the LTLH horse happy. My thoughts on the ability of Digital cushion regeneration is that the abilitiy of the DC to regenerate/recover is directly related to how long it has been crushed/compromised. A common disclaimer that I give to my clients is "Successs will be dependent on Soft tissue response". That response is again related to how long has this problem been in existence.

Mr. Pittman,

I heard that Dr. Denoix does not like the banana concept one bit, except perhaps in laminitic horses.

Over the decades, thanks to a lot of different people I learned of a lot of valuable shoeing protocols. Like I often also know their limits. I found that those limitations tend to throw others off such protocols entirely. For me that is too rigid. We need to address lameness/soundness issues with the correct protocol. Like a hammer is a poor tool when we are in need of a saw, a great shoeing protocol used for the wrong purposes can have disastrous effects.

That is why I like to learn as much as I can, without feeling too obligated to defend protocols, especially when such protocols have proven themselves over and over again to me, in my daily work. Perhaps that makes me a little self centered in this respect, although as this site proves I have no problem sharing all I know when asked for it. And frankly for me the ways banana's can help out, including their limitations (I hope it comes as no surprise that even the banana shoe is no cure all) are pretty clear. That is why I do not feel like defending the concept. I'm more than happy to talk about it, but why should I defend the premise that "tomorrow the sun will rise"?. If you allow me this analogy.

Perhaps also another thing plays a role here. As I said to a valued colleague a short while ago, there is a difference in the approach of problems by Europeans an Americans. Europeans tend (although most will deny it) to take care of problems using more "traditional" protocols, where Americans are more likely to think "out of the box". I do all I can to combine those two, because I hope that a combination might some day bring the best out for the horse and hopefully every professional who decided to commit their lives (and where shoers are concerned, often their well being, yes, my knees and back are a pain too, thanks to that "finest of species" :rolleyes:) to working with horses. Ok, I'm a dreamer, I plead guilty to that.

Ronald Aalders
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RE:Dr. J.M. Denoix 08 Sep 2010 13:14 #18

  • docsam03
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I wasn't really expecting for you to defend the banana approach. I just did not know what Denoix's thoughts where on the matter and assumed you would have a good idea if he liked it and if not what problems he had with it. I really enjoy reading your post, you are very articulate and well spoken and I stand to learn a great deal from your experience. I find the rocker shoe is my biggest current weapon against the evil forces within the equine hoof but I have also realized that it is not the only option. I really like the concept and I have been using it for 5 years or so, but I am always looking to hear of vet's and farriers that do not like the approach so I can further educate myself with potential downfalls of the application. I just want to be sure I am getting the whole picture and that includes people thoughts who do not agree with the approach, maybe they are seeing or experiencing a problem or thought process I have not. Thanks for your time in describing your experiences with Mr. Denoix
Sammy L. Pittman, DVM
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RE:Dr. J.M. Denoix 08 Sep 2010 13:49 #19

Well, I can name a few of my own. :D

To some a drawback is that the shoe does not provide a level groundsurface. A horse will in that view not have a stable surface to stand on. To others that is exactly why the banana is such a great tool, it allows the horse to "self adjust its palmar angle".

Another drawback is that a banana not only allows rocking forward, but rocking backward as well. Who can tell how far and how often the foot can rock back without causing trouble resembling that of a low heeled foot? I don't think that's an issue at all because of the DDFT pull being more than strong enough to even rock a banana with a counterwedge forward easily. But does that go for each and every horse with or without any pathology? I can not answer that one.

Some feel that a shoe where heels curve up hits the ground later in the landing phase than a regular shoe would. That might, they feel, cause issues similar to overstretching.

Applying the banana shoe is easy to explain but does need some experience, so it's prone to error.

A banana clearly stimulates sole growth in the anterior part of the foot, less in the posterior part. (If you don't mind I'll skip my views on the "why" here, but it's "lever" related) So some people seem to feel that in the end the banana will push itself back into a negative palmar angle.

Perhaps the fact that the banana is so unothodox as a shoer you seriously risk getting blamed for lameness issues when someone finds a banana on a lame foot, (even if it is just an abcess that causes the lameness) might be considered a drawback too. :rolleyes:

And the people expressing such drawbacks are not just guys that feel like kicking something. I respect them for their views, even if my years of experience with banana shoes (and other shoes...) proves these concerns to be academical or at any rate easy to overcome.

Ronald Aalders
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RE:Dr. J.M. Denoix 08 Sep 2010 14:56 #20

Ronald Aalders wrote:
A banana clearly stimulates sole growth in the anterior part of the foot..........

Ron, I have a question about the sole growth stimulated by a banana shoe. As you know I'm wanting to use the GC D Roller Heart Bar on my club footed horse (if we can EVER get the correct size delivered). So, after we get the needed sole growth, which should also correct the HPA: In your experience, does the sole depth remain as long as we continue to keep the HPA aligned?
Karen Standefer
Southern Oregon
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RE:Dr. J.M. Denoix 08 Sep 2010 17:00 #21

Depends on the reason why sole growth was reduced. If the only reason was the broken back HPA and the delayed breakover because of it, your chances are pretty good I guess.

As a side note you don't need to buy banana shoes. They are easily made! Baron sells DVD's with a presentation of mine on banana shoes. That should enable any shoer worth his or her salt to apply a banana shoe.

Ronald Aalders
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RE:Dr. J.M. Denoix 14 Sep 2010 06:20 #22

Thanks for the info, Ron. I appreciate your giving your experience, and advice. You make me think out-side , of my box.
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RE:Dr. J.M. Denoix 17 Sep 2010 11:51 #23

  • Rachael Kane
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Ron Alders: "The last couple of years I started looking upon shoeing not as much ways to "fix" a foot, but to improve the way a horse moves and uses it's back. I found that if you can take away the poor movement in a horse, foot quality improves with it. Our shoeing protocols in that respect are ways to improve a horses gait. The abundence of possibilities allow an educated shoer to pick what he thinks is right given a particular horse in a particular situation adding training protocols in the mix."

That statement just made my earth move Ron! This is the thinking that keeps me up at night and the reason (well, one of the reasons :rolleyes:) I feel totally inept - it is the holy grail and I thank you greatly for verbalising it so well.
Sorry to but in and sound like a groupie, but, well maybe I am :D.
Rachael :)

'Motivation gets you going, discipline keeps you going.' (Jim Ryan).
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