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No title 05 Dec 2004 13:20 #1

  • shoesofiron
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..........
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RE: 05 Dec 2004 14:57 #2

Hi,

I know its no help, but we've all been there! I know I have! And there's more to come. Its hard to accept but you don't really have a choice.

Many years ago I was ****** enough to argue when I knew I was right. And sooner or later it turned out I wás right. But look at what happened, the customer was forced in a position to choose sides either for me or for the vet. When they chose my side, they weren't comfortable with their vet anymore. Forcing me to make decisions on the horse at hand I was not ready to make. When they chose the vet's side I was not too comfortable anymore. Because we all know how easy it is to blame the shoer when something goes way south.

The point I'm trying to make is that matters like these force you in a right/wrong situation where you do not want to be in since there is no winning in it. So you better be more tactfull than the vet is. I really hate that to happen because if you're not careful it forces you to step out of the scheme "vet taking control and making decisions ánd telling the shoer what to do". That's how its supposed to be.

Point out your findings to the vet. Ask him to explain, because you don't. Make sure the vet knows he needs to answer your questions to get the horse shod the way he wants. (In this case Scott did not know what to do, even Scott doesn't have all the answers) You do not want to be send away because talking to you takes too much time! DON'T allow this to end up in a right/wrong situation. Just ask questions trying to find common ground where both shoer and vet are comfortable on.

"Funny the horse was lame after a touch up. Would there be any chance the horse foundered at any one time? If so, would sole support be an idea? He did a lot better with Lilly pads in soft ground. What do you think about breakover on this horse? I tried a shoe on a similar case that was treated by .......... (fill in FAMOUS vet here) that worked pretty good. Should we give that a try here too?" You know stuff like that.

Some vets need to be addressed a little differently to get them to work, face it that's how it is.


Good luck Scott,


Ronald Aalders
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RE: 05 Dec 2004 15:34 #3

On the plus side here, the vet told the owner what shoeing prescription "should" work, so once applied, when it fails, it is his fault. Not yours. If it does work, then your both hero's, if not, he was wrong. I would have the client call the vet make an appointment and all three of you should get together and discuss this. Make sure you do it in front of the owner. That way when you give the vet your opinion and he says no, you're off the hook. I think the main points are
1. You want to keep the client, so don't try to be the hero.
2. If the vet gives you a prescription, the ball is in his court.
3. When discussing things with the vet, try to do it with the owner present, this let's the owner know that you don't necessarily agree with the vet but you will do it his way cause he has DVM after his name.
4. When all is said and done and the horse finally gets done the way you want to do him, and he trots off down the rode like an Amish buggy horse (except sound) you will be the hero without making the vet look bad, or yourself.

We all need to realize that in situations like this it is self preservation, you need to try to keep the vet and your reputations good while disagreeing about treatment. The good thing is that if the vet gives you a prescription and you follow it, and it doesn't work, it's not your neck. My mentor always told me if a vet said to do it and you think it is wrong, try talking to him, and if that doesn't work, do it the way the vet said, and then he'll be willing to talk cause it didn't work.
good luck
Dave :)
"Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects." Will Rogers

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBimQu6Pxxs
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RE: 05 Dec 2004 16:29 #4

  • Mike Ferrara
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I wonder if the whole state is this way. I can't say that all the Indiana vets are bad because I don't know them all but I haven't yet found one for my own horses and I certainly don't yet know one that I'd recommend to a client with a lame horse.

One of the things on my to-do list is to get busy and do some shoping to find a vet within "reasonable" distance that has some interest and talent when it comes to ...anything other than administering wormer or shots to a barn full.
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RE: 05 Dec 2004 22:51 #5

  • shoesofiron
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Thanks guys and I appreciate it. One of the things I neglected to mention was that the owner told me over the phone we had good radiographs and that the horse was indeed rotated.
So I go there intent on applying some sort of frog support (I have some concave I need to use up via heartbars) or a Superfast support and I carry some McClane pads.
But I get there and she tells me the vet says the mare "is not rotated bad enough to need a frog support".

There you go-

I'm showing up at his clinic first thing with a good morning gift of fresh brewed Jamacian Blue Mountain coffee and the attitude of "just wanting to be sure I didn't miss something".
We'll see how it goes from there.
I just wonder how we got from "Scott will know what to do" to "just put an open shoe with a rolled toe on".
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RE: 06 Dec 2004 00:08 #6

Is it possible the owner is not being truthfull or maybe misunderstood the Vet.? How do you know what the Vet actually said to the owner? I always talk to the Vet one on one and find out first hand what they want to do and why and then I explain my ideas. I find it is best for professionals to have open communications and it should be done in private, then you can discuss things openly and honestly and come to a better decision. When I find out a Vet has talked negatively about me behind my back, I call them and confront them on it. It usually does not happen again, I do not care if we ever become friends and ever eat lunch together, all I care about is being treated with respect and professionalism. If it continues, then the gloves come off and I will persuade my client into finding another Vet or another Farrier. Life is too short and I like to enjoy what I do.
Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE: 06 Dec 2004 03:07 #7

Scott,
"...not rotated enough to need frog support."

Is that like being just a little pregnant? I have found that even mild chronic cases can go acut quickly, which is probobly what happened to you. If the brakes fail on a train going down the hill, who gets blamed...the engineer. Dina blow your horn toot toot!
If the horse responded to the mild support provided by the Lilly pads, I would be pretty certain that that emperical data would convince me that some form of solid, permanent frog support would be good. Maybe share this info with the vet, build your heart bar "with a rolled toe"(or whatever device you want to provide the support) and help the critter. I have seen a few vets who do not understand or are afraid of the heart bar. I think they have seen poorly fit ones damage the vascular supply. I am confident that you are confident that you can do it right, so sell that to the vet. If you are just expanding on what he presented he will probobly go along with it. A well fit shoe can not hurt the foot, but can only help if it "might" become neccasary.
Spin the positive, tell him what you know while just expanding on what he said, like you are clarifying what he implied tacitly. :D This lets him nod in agreement without losing face! :cool:
Jason
"Always listen to the experts. They tell you what can't be done, and why. Then do it." Robert Heinlien
Jason Maki CJF, RJF
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RE: 22 Dec 2004 21:05 #8

  • mwmyersdvm
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It is always a good idea to talk directly to the veterianrian without allowing the owner to interpret. This may help.

I can honestly tell everyone on the board (as if you didn't already know) that veterinarians not only have very minimal training in farriery, they actually don't have much training in hoof form and function. This presents a very difficult situation for the farrier and an even worse one for the horse.

If you need some assistance from a podiatrist (veterinarian and farrier) I am here on the board and you can refer the veterinarian and owner here for assistance. Some veterinarians will have a problem with this but may have to cave in to owner pressure "if they want to keep the client". Wouldn't you just love to have the tables turned in your favor?

M. W. Myers, D.V.M.
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