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TOPIC: GPF Clinic cont.

RE:GPF Clinic cont. 13 Jul 2010 14:13 #16

  • jack-mac
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Mark_Gough wrote:
Nice photos Phil and clean work by the clinician.

I can't speak to Rick's forging priority but did notice that he took a recent "beating" on this forum regards his ability to properly shoe a horse.

I've watched Rick work and the man clearly knows his way around a horse, anvil and forge.

Here's an example of work he did at my place. It's not a handmade but he didn't nail it on "out of the box" either. Nice trim, good shape, lateral support, hot fit and nailed up proper from my perspective. ;)

Cheers,
Mark

mid sides fitted far to wide with the shoe hanging out at the heel & quarter , laterals fitted to tight & over the frog ,that's a fail in my book unless your goal is to have them cutting them self to bits brushing & speedy cutting when galloped.
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RE:GPF Clinic cont. 13 Jul 2010 18:33 #17

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tbloomer wrote:
So you are OK with having 3/4" of unsupported horn (heel buttress to coronary band) hanging off the back of the shoe as a lever at an acute angle with the weight of the horse over it and the entire shoe engaging the ground force lever opposing that weight? What about that physics stuff, Fill?

If I'm following you correctly, you're saying the heels were left too high and the shoe was fit to the high heel?

If the horse walked up lame wouldn't the #1 goal for shoeing to have the horse walk off more comfortable?

It's difficult to gauge vertical depth in a photo. If the toe is short you can't always trim the heel to where you would like to.

If the foot is too short to trim it how you would like, should you really be hanging all sorts of shoe out the back? Wouldn't hanging more shoe out the back put more leverage on the heel?

Would you rather he trimmed the heels till they blended into the bulbs? Fit the heels to the back of the bulbs? Added a wedge? Then have him be crippled because of all the nonsense that went into it when the foot really needed protection for a shoeing?

Personally I think part of being a good farrier is knowing when not to push things and just do what you can do until the next shoeing.

Here's on from yesterday, I'm sure everyone can pick it apart. Personally I think the horse no longer limping was the most important order of the day.
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RE:GPF Clinic cont. 13 Jul 2010 19:11 #18

Personally I think that your widest part of the hoof jumped atleast 1 cm forward when you fit your shoe. most important thing of course is that the horse was better, but can you really see that foot in that shoe? I think that the arc of a coffin bone is pretty clearly seen in pic 1.
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RE:GPF Clinic cont. 13 Jul 2010 19:34 #19

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Is length always "support," or can it also be "leverage?"
Standing on hard ground (provided there is not a severed tendon), don't the heels have just as much "support" from 2 inches of shoe sticking out the back as they do barefoot?
How does the role of adding palmar/plantar support change with the firmness of the substrate?
Wouldn't the role of "support" vs. "leverage" be dependent upon the tension in the DFT?
If the heel horn has failed and/or needs to be 'supported', would a better choice not be to focus on transferring a portion of that assumed load elsewhere?
Scruggs Farrier Service
John Scruggs, CJF
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RE:GPF Clinic cont. 13 Jul 2010 19:39 #20

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I would love to have some of the super shoers from horseshoes.com on speed dial so they can show me how to do the perfect job on a foot like this. Unfortunately for a mere mortal like myself I had to do the best I could. Which seems to be about what travis did to his horse.
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RE:GPF Clinic cont. 13 Jul 2010 19:45 #21

  • British Matt
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scruggs1 wrote:
Is length always "support," or can it also be "leverage?"
Standing on hard ground (provided there is not a severed tendon), don't the heels have just as much "support" from 2 inches of shoe sticking out the back as they do barefoot?
How does the role of adding palmar/plantar support change with the firmness of the substrate?
Wouldn't the role of "support" vs. "leverage" be dependent upon the tension in the DFT?
If the heel horn has failed and/or needs to be 'supported', would a better choice not be to focus on transferring a portion of that assumed load elsewhere?

This would be a good discussion to have, in another thread perhaps. I'd like to hear what peoples thoughts are regarding support vs leverage.
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RE:GPF Clinic cont. 13 Jul 2010 19:56 #22

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Eric Russell wrote:
I would love to have some of the super shoers from horseshoes.com on speed dial so they can show me how to do the perfect job on a foot like this. Unfortunately for a mere mortal like myself I had to do the best I could. Which seems to be about what travis did to his horse.

There is no such thing as the perfect job and even if we did get it, we wouldn't know it. Personally, I think both jobs improved the functionality of the feet and the protection thereof...which is what we are supposed to do. Travis' foot was missing vertical depth and had big flares...over trimming and over dressing would have bitten him in the a s s, but he obviously knew better and got the job done nice and safe...and even got a nice rocker on the shoe, visible in the photo. Your foot was run forward, missing a chunk of medial wall, and a little on the lateral. You got the toe back and got the quarters fit so you could get good nails in the missing parts of the foot. Nicely done. How did you get the pour in to be so clean and slick?
Scruggs Farrier Service
John Scruggs, CJF
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RE:GPF Clinic cont. 13 Jul 2010 20:08 #23

  • tbloomer
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Eric Russell wrote:
If I'm following you correctly, you're saying the heels were left too high and the shoe was fit to the high heel?
Nope. I'm saying that the heels of the shoe would better serve the caudal foot it they were extended to a plumb line dropped from where the heel buttress originates in the coronary band.
If the horse walked up lame wouldn't the #1 goal for shoeing to have the horse walk off more comfortable?
Uh huh.
It's difficult to gauge vertical depth in a photo. If the toe is short you can't always trim the heel to where you would like to.
I didn't comment on the trim. I thought it was ok.
If the foot is too short to trim it how you would like, should you really be hanging all sorts of shoe out the back?
I get better results by not hanging all sorts of shoe out the front.
Wouldn't hanging more shoe out the back put more leverage on the heel?
Where is the fulcrums for the levers between ground reaction forces and the weight of the horse?
Would you rather he trimmed the heels till they blended into the bulbs?
See above.
Fit the heels to the back of the bulbs? Added a wedge? Then have him be crippled because of all the nonsense that went into it when the foot really needed protection for a shoeing?
Generally, I don't do wedges. I thought the trim was conservative and respectful of hoof mass. I think the shoe placement was adequate for immediate protection, but inadequate for encouraging the foot to do anything but continue to run forward in the toe and roll under in the heels.
Personally I think part of being a good farrier is knowing when not to push things and just do what you can do until the next shoeing.
Uh huh. That's why I'm not much of a fan of wedges.
Here's on from yesterday, I'm sure everyone can pick it apart. Personally I think the horse no longer limping was the most important order of the day.
Looks good to me from the view provided. I like you job better, but the mechanics are different in regards to distortion. The heels are substantial and the horn in the heels appears to be standing up rather than folding under. A wee bit clubby, perhaps?

From what I can see you brought the toe back - ventral, without comprising the solar depth. Without a lateral view I can't see your heel relationship to the origin of growth. I think your job is going to have a better foot to come back to in 5 weeks. IMO, IME, the other job we're discussing will have the same foot or not much improvement by comparison.
Tom Bloomer
http://blackburnforge.com
302-222-6404


Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
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RE:GPF Clinic cont. 13 Jul 2010 20:13 #24

  • tbloomer
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scruggs1 wrote:
Is length always "support," or can it also be "leverage?"
Where is the fulcrums for the levers between ground reaction forces and the weight of the horse?
Tom Bloomer
http://blackburnforge.com
302-222-6404


Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
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RE:GPF Clinic cont. 13 Jul 2010 20:19 #25

Eric Russell wrote:
I would love to have some of the super shoers from horseshoes.com on speed dial so they can show me how to do the perfect job on a foot like this. Unfortunately for a mere mortal like myself I had to do the best I could. Which seems to be about what travis did to his horse.

did i say you didn´t make the horse better? what i see here is a lot different than what i´d see if i had the foot in my hands. you did a good job. I just pointed out the things you propably saw yourself.
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RE:GPF Clinic cont. 13 Jul 2010 20:22 #26

here´s one with the same looking hoof. did i end up with a round shoe?I have forged a french roll to it. the one you made fun with me yrs a go right on this very page, because you didn´t know that the toe could´ve been forged like that before mr. perry pointed that out to you.
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RE:GPF Clinic cont. 13 Jul 2010 20:31 #27

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tbloomer wrote:
Where is the fulcrums for the levers between ground reaction forces and the weight of the horse?

How does the tension in the DDFT influence the angle of the horn at the heel?
Scruggs Farrier Service
John Scruggs, CJF
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RE:GPF Clinic cont. 13 Jul 2010 20:34 #28

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scruggs1 wrote:
Your foot was run forward, missing a chunk of medial wall, and a little on the lateral. You got the toe back and got the quarters fit so you could get good nails in the missing parts of the foot.

Here in lies the problem with pics on the internet. It's very easy to say the foot was missing a chunk of wall and the toe was run forward.

What the pic doesn't show is the back of the sole callous being the same level as the toe. The width of the foot being about the same width as the coronet band. The horse flinching with every nail being driven. The inflammation starting in the pastern from his foot being sore. The only place there was wall was by the heel. The rest was sole and white line.

I can honestly say any horseshoer I know would have been happy to have gotten a shoe on that foot. But on the internet people will have you believe that not only could they get a shoe on the foot they could have written down to a T what they would have done.


Nicely done.

Thanks
How did you get the pour in to be so clean and slick?

That's the equipak soft. The foot was very sore but the horse is leaving the barn shortly and will be on a long trailer ride so I wanted to spread something soft across his foot. I normally wouldn't have nailed a shoe on a foot that was so sore.
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RE:GPF Clinic cont. 13 Jul 2010 20:37 #29

scruggs1 wrote:
How does the tension in the DDFT influence the angle of the horn at the heel?

Thank you mr Scruggs. ddft, suspensory ligament, sdft, extensor tendons.make a new topic for that.
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RE:GPF Clinic cont. 13 Jul 2010 20:41 #30

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Juhani Takanen wrote:
here´s one with the same looking hoof. did i end up with a round shoe?I have forged a french roll to it. the one you made fun with me yrs a go right on this very page, because you didn´t know that the toe could´ve been forged like that before mr. perry pointed that out to you.

I don't know what you're talking about when you say I didn't know a toe could have something forged into it and jaye taught me?

I also believe the front half of the shoe should mirror the back half. So having straight quarters with hooked in heels would signify cutting the quarters.

I agree my shoe is too broad/round through the quarters but like I was suggesting I was happy to get a shoe on the foot. I would like to run into some of the people on this board with so much skill that they're not happy sometimes just to get a shoe on a foot safely.
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