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TOPIC: Guild Clinic @ Dr. Tookie Myers Clinic

RE:Guild Clinic @ Dr. Tookie Myers Clinic 08 Jul 2010 11:22 #31

  • cuttinshoer
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Jay Mickle wrote:
As indicated I was only there for a short while but can assure you that on a bell curve these feet would have been out at the very end. The walls were so distorted that when the flairs in the front hooves were dressed the perimeter was the white line and all nails were driven into the distorted sole. The hinds didn't look much better.
I'm sure that if Rick had to choose he would have picked a different horse. To make a meaningful change on such a poor footed horse in a clinic situation is fraught with significant difficulties. Credit to Rick for attempting it.

Therein lies the problem, everyone wants to dress distorted feet to make them look pleasing to the eye or because that's what the book says to do. Compromiseing the integrity of the capsule causing more problems down the road, and then they stick the horse. In the real world if some of the so called distortion is left to allow for safe nailing you don't run into this problem. When you come back to reset you can take a little more of the distortion. Rome wasn't built in a day.
Justin Decker

"As I see it, good enough is never good enough, it's just an excuse for mediocrity. If every shoeing ain't worth your best shot, you're just going through the motions." Tom Stovall, CJF
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RE:Guild Clinic @ Dr. Tookie Myers Clinic 08 Jul 2010 11:28 #32

  • chris bunting
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to make things worse a professional has pricked a horse , i know it was accidentally , and then unbelievably a glue on shoe is put on covering the puncture , what book does that procedure come from ?
it sounds like a case for correctly forged handmades instead of comprimising with readymades
chris
common sense is not needed when you have rules
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RE:Guild Clinic @ Dr. Tookie Myers Clinic 08 Jul 2010 12:10 #33

  • Jay Mickle
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chris bunting wrote:
then unbelievably a glue on shoe is put on covering the puncture

Your lack of knowledge is exceeded only by your desire to criticize. Sigafoos shoes are glued to the outer wall. Nails are driven into the solar surface of the hoof. No puncture covered.
If the finger pointers here would have keep their powder dry we may have had an intelligent discussion with xrays and pictures. My expectation is that such will not be forthcoming.
This board is a great venue for education. Civil discussion will do more to further our insights than criticism.
Jay Mickle
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RE:Guild Clinic @ Dr. Tookie Myers Clinic 08 Jul 2010 12:23 #34

Jay Mickle wrote:
Your lack of knowledge is exceeded only by your desire to criticize. Sigafoos shoes are glued to the outer wall. Nails are driven into the solar surface of the hoof. No puncture covered.
If the finger pointers here would have keep their powder dry we may have had an intelligent discussion with xrays and pictures. My expectation is that such will not be forthcoming.
This board is a great venue for education. Civil discussion will do more to further our insights than criticism.

Jay, I think his point is that the shoe covers the puncture near the w/l, no matter how it is affixed. And I have never seen a sigafoos applied without glue between the shoe and hoof. Chris makes a good point. I'm curious as to the reasoning behind applying the shoe immediately after the puncture. Would it not have been better to leave it off for a couple of days?

Regards
Rick Shepherd

Although we know what we believe, we may only believe what we know. Dr William Moyers
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RE:Guild Clinic @ Dr. Tookie Myers Clinic 08 Jul 2010 13:14 #35

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thank you mr shepherd that was my point exactly . i am not criticising , i am pointing out facts that i find very difficult to beleive have been allowed to occur in an education class
mr mickle it is you that needs to check your knowledge on shoe application not me .
as i have been told do not post if you cannot accept others views on something ,making excuses for your fellow brothers is laughable
chris
common sense is not needed when you have rules
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RE:Guild Clinic @ Dr. Tookie Myers Clinic 08 Jul 2010 14:46 #36

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I am not pointing fingers at anyone, just merely stateing my opinion based on my experiences. Everyone sticks a horse I have and have seen some of the best stick one.

My point was one has to be catious when dressing feet just like when we make a nipper cut on the bottom of the foot. The most important part is knowing when to quit. If one puts the mechanics of a properly dressed foot into the shoe and then applies it to an improperly dressed foot so that it could be nailed safely. You have reduced the leverage on the distortion in the foot. Sometimes horses need ugly feet.
Justin Decker

"As I see it, good enough is never good enough, it's just an excuse for mediocrity. If every shoeing ain't worth your best shot, you're just going through the motions." Tom Stovall, CJF
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RE:Guild Clinic @ Dr. Tookie Myers Clinic 08 Jul 2010 14:49 #37

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here ,here ,justin that is what i am trying to say . apperently some horses have to have ugly farriers as well
chris
common sense is not needed when you have rules
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RE:Guild Clinic @ Dr. Tookie Myers Clinic 08 Jul 2010 19:09 #38

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chris bunting wrote:
here ,here ,justin that is what i am trying to say . apperently some horses have to have ugly farriers as well
chris

So the guy stuck the horse big deal, weve all done it. Should enough foot have been left to safely nail, of course. He made a mistake, and hopefully learned from it.
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RE:Guild Clinic @ Dr. Tookie Myers Clinic 08 Jul 2010 20:49 #39

This also can be found in the "spin off thread"....
Originally Posted by George Geist
Ok, I'll second Eric's question and ask also for what reason did there need to be a revision?
George

Handmade test converted to keg shoe test for journeyman level.... Form your own opinion.
Originally Posted by Eric Russell
A 14 handmade shoe display then shoe a horse with kegs seem weird. Seems like maybe the rf should be doing the keg shoeing. RJF handmades, no
I still wonder if anyone on the board is able to pass the existing test. And since I don't know who's on the board, for the older guys could you have ever passed the current test?

Anyway, since this was the first test since the revision, how does everyone involved think it went?
The 14 shoe display is a high standard, so high that even if I thought I could make all of them on any given day, I doubt they would be up to my own personal standards.

As to ability to pass within the current Guild members and BOD I cannot comment but I can say that there is a lack of willingness to even entertain the option of re-testing to the new standards.

Concerning the test event, personally I thought it was a train wreck.



Originally Posted by Jay Mickle
Rick,
Thanks for your reply. I started this thread because I wasn't around when you all first discussed the horse and I thought that their was considerable diversity of views amongst the participants that would be of interest here on the board. If credibility of forging skill is required to continue this discussion I'm sure Dave Duckett's presence should suffice. Was there a discussion between you, Dave Duckett, Martin Kenny, et. al. that reached a consensus?

Jay,

Obviously I am not Rick but I do have some thoughts on your questioning.

Mr Duckett was there as a guest and observer only. I'm sure he would not want people to assume, believe or even consider that he was giving direction or that he was in any way a participant.

Mr Duckett's reputation is without reproach and it would be remiss for anyone to use his presence as a "qualifier" for the work put on the floor that day or the test day. To my knowledge there was no discussion that reached a consensus.

I can say that Mr. Duckett's expectations of a "Journeyman" or "Master" farrier are far greater than nailing up a set of keggers.

I hope this will set things straight in people's minds regarding Mr Duckett's attendance at this Guild function.

There is much debate about this particular subject (handmades VS machine) which has created a varitable divide amongst farriers who should be united in the profession. Ultimately each has to come to their own conclusion regarding the use, application and validity that true forgework brings to the profession. The standard we set for ourselves is what we are, and what we are willing to call our own.

I, early on, did not see the benifit of true forgework but now stand in a different position having experienced more and understanding more of the purposes and applications. Handmades on a horse will bring your skills to a higher level no matter how you slice it.

Simply put. I was wrong in my assumption and belief.

I for one don't nail up handmades on a daily basis and don't always nail up machine made. The limited skills I have developed in forge work have not only allowed me a broader range of application but also have helped helped me develop a more trained and efficient eye for those things needed in the application of farriery on a regular basis.

Regards,
Brian R. Purrington
This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
www.wellshodhorses.com
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RE:Guild Clinic @ Dr. Tookie Myers Clinic 08 Jul 2010 21:12 #40

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Am i the only one finding it hard to follow this thread?
Smitty88
John Mc Loughlin
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RE:Guild Clinic @ Dr. Tookie Myers Clinic 08 Jul 2010 21:23 #41

  • tbloomer
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Western Hill Forge wrote:
Jay, I think his point is that the shoe covers the puncture near the w/l, no matter how it is affixed. And I have never seen a sigafoos applied without glue between the shoe and hoof.
According to the manufacturer a benefit of the glue on cuff system . . .
Section 5 - "No "Glue" on the Bottom of Hoof"
http://www.soundhorse.com/featuresbenefits-list.htm
Chris makes a good point. I'm curious as to the reasoning behind applying the shoe immediately after the puncture. Would it not have been better to leave it off for a couple of days?
Interesting question. Perhaps worth a discussion unto itself.

So when you quick a horse, you leave the shoe off, then come back in a few days and nail on shoe? I've never done that or seen it done. Seems there would be some logistical problems and explanations to clients about why you couldn't finish shoeing the horse for a few days. Might be a problem if it happens the day before a show.

When I quick or close nail a horse, I put some disinfectant like iodine in the nail hole, skip that nail (maybe punch finer nail holes) and finish nailing up the shoe and tell the client what happened and ask them to BOLO for problems for a few days . . . That's how I was taught to handle it in school and so far it has worked pretty well. I worry less about the ones that bleed than the ones where you pull a hot nail and there is no blood. But the thought of leaving the shoe off for a few days has never crossed my mind or come up in a discussion I've had with another farrier.

For you folks who leave the shoe off for a few days after you quick a horse, how does that work out for you?
Tom Bloomer
http://blackburnforge.com
302-222-6404


Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
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RE:Guild Clinic @ Dr. Tookie Myers Clinic 08 Jul 2010 21:35 #42

Actually Tom, I do the same thing you do, was taught the same way.

At a WCB compitition once I saw a competitor quick a horse. The judge came over, and they pulled the nail, applied some iodine, then plugged the hole with some iodine soaked cotton and a nail with the shank cut off. I tried this a couple of times with no ill results, but always wondered how good an idea it was.

Same question with the glue on.

Have you ever seen anyone apply a sigafoos without glueing the shoe? I'm certainly no expert on them, but I've seen several farriers at clinics and in the field apply them by putting glue inside the cuff, between the hoof and shoe. I applied one at a clinic once under direction of the resident farrier, and that's what we did.

Not being argumentative, just would like to hear some opinions.

Regards
Rick Shepherd

Although we know what we believe, we may only believe what we know. Dr William Moyers
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RE:Guild Clinic @ Dr. Tookie Myers Clinic 08 Jul 2010 21:40 #43

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Tom i think you will find most times a farrier leaves the shoe off for
a few days

its not that he has caught him with a nail but over dressed the foot
and poorly fitted shoes
Smitty88
John Mc Loughlin
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RE:Guild Clinic @ Dr. Tookie Myers Clinic 08 Jul 2010 21:44 #44

Rick S., Chris B. and others.

Let me clear a few things up here so that you both/all can have your say with all the true facts pertaining to this issue.
In order to form an opinion one should have all information available.

1) This horse was not only "pricked"... Yes it did happen, but by definition "pricked" is when you begin to drive a nail, get a reaction from the horse and respond by checking your placement. If you see blood where your nail was driven that would be considered "pricked". Agreed?

2) This horse was nailed in both quarters at the third nail hole on the same foot... As in, the shoe was fully nailed up with six nails and the foot put on the floor. I point this out only to show that nailing options were now even more reduced.

3) During the nail up there was some obvious difficulty with placement of nails. I suggested that an option would be to punch "finer" nail holes. My suggestion was rejected.

4) When horse was finished and after some debate on the functionability of the package I was asked to "...."finish" the horse....." when I attempted to pick up the LH the horse would not bear weight on the RH. I picked up the RH and found blood comimg from both quarters.

5) The idea to Glue this horse behind was my idea. Here were my reasons and I stand by them:

* The hind feet had little wall mass left to get good nails into.
* This horse's shoeing package required four points of traction.
* This was a police horse and needed to go back to work.
* The sigafoos cuff would afford stability for the now weak foot.
* The sig/cuff would provide options for dealing with the "insults".
* The effect of the applied traction on a weak foot would be negated.
* If there was a problem the sig is easily removed and I am within driving distance of the horse.

6) I treated each site with iodine and uniprim. I relieved the rim pad directly under the areas of insult so as to allow drainage if needed. The horse was visibly more comfortable after getting the "sigs" on.

7) I personally have been in contact with the attending farrier as late as this past weekend, who coincidentally was there for the clinic and test, and he reports that there have been no complications or presentations of lameness relative to this particular situation. Because I live within close proximity of the horse, owner and farrier I felt compelled to maintain communication with them to see things through.

All of this can be verified by several witnesses who were present on that day.

Concerning the idea/misunderstanding that you need/or end up with glue between the foot surface of the shoe and the sole/wall juction.... this is untrue. There is no need for, nor did it happen in this case or any other of the hunderds of sigafoos I have glued.

I don't like to glue and if I don't have to, I wont. This was an unfortunate case of NEED. I keep sigs on the truck in case of a situation where, due to circumstances beyond my control, I have to opt for the Cuff.

Sometimes we have to take in all the factors of a job/shoeing before we pass judgement. If you still feel like Jay M. is making excuses for me, I cordially invite you to come with Vid/camera, notebook or textbook in hand to ride a day or two with me. I would sincerely enjoy it and would hope that we could learn a bit from each other.

I hope this clears things up.

Regards,
Brian R. Purrington
This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
www.wellshodhorses.com
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RE:Guild Clinic @ Dr. Tookie Myers Clinic 08 Jul 2010 21:50 #45

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Western Hill Forge wrote:
Have you ever seen anyone apply a sigafoos without glueing the shoe?
Yes. Brian Purrington. Several times on several horses. I've also removed several Sigafoos shoes where there was no glue on the bottom of the foot - don't know who did the work on those.
Tom Bloomer
http://blackburnforge.com
302-222-6404


Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
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