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TOPIC: Justifying your "high prices?"

RE:Justifying your "high prices?" 26 Apr 2010 14:32 #16

  • solidrockshoer
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I dont try to justify what I charge. I charge what I charge because I can. I dont defend myself on what I charge. Either your going to pay it or your not. I have found the more I charge the better horses I work on. Around here if you dont charge enough your going to be working on every back yard fire breathing monster.
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RE:Justifying your "high prices?" 26 Apr 2010 14:40 #17

  • Gary_Miller
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When asked to justify my prices I do just that.

I give the brake down of what it really costs to shoe a horse, shoe cost, nail, cost, (there's $15) then add to that rasp wear, propane, replacement tool costs, vehicle fuel costs, in the end about a third of what I charge comes out to be material and overhead just to show up.

Then if you let them know about small buisness taxes, health insurance, truck insurance, truck maintenance, vacation time off, sick time off, continuing education and any other buisness related expenses.

After all this tell them you make X amount an hour based on an 8 hour day. In which just like them you have to pay for all the normal expenses that they do such as House payment, Utilities, Car insurance, groceries, kids activities, clothes, and everything else they have to with their income after SSI and Taxes.

Once you have done all that they usually understand why you charge what you do. They still may wonder why the other guy is $25 cheaper than you. When they ask me that I let them know that the other guy doesn't know what it really cost them because they don't run their buisness like a buisness, usually because they have another job. I also ex-plane that they don't provide the service I do.

Then I ex-plane what that service is, quality professional work, steady 8 wk schedule of appointments, reminder call the day before appointment, they don't need to be there to hold the horse, pulled shoes replaced within 24 hours, returned phone calls usually within the same day at the least within 24 hours, flexible scheduling if they need to change an appointment it no problem (however its goes both ways).

If you can't justify your costs, when asked, then you don't know what it really costs you to shoe a horse.

In the end it all comes down to quality work and good customer service provided at a reusable cost.
Gary Miller, PF

Ride hard, shoot straight, and always speak the truth.
Gunfighter Motto

"Our level of quality is how well our eye can see it." (Eric Russell, Oct 2008, Horseshoes.com)

"Discover what it is that makes you passionate then grab a firm...
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RE:Justifying your "high prices?" 26 Apr 2010 15:02 #18

  • Mike Ferrara
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Mark_Gough wrote:
John, your comment about 'good and bad work' is a puzzle to me. There is no training or licensing requirement in the states so the range of quality (or lack thereof) is huge.

I have a hard time understanding how farriers in your area that are required to complete a school plus four years of formal apprenticeship and state licensing exams can be anything less than exceptional in almost every aspect of their work.

The work you have posted by your first year apprentices is typically far better than most of the work I see done around this area, including my own. Still, I have seen photos of work done in Great Britain that appears very poor. I don't understand how that can happen given the rigorous training and testing requirements.

It's easy to understand how 4 or 5 years here may not produce a quality farrier. That time may only represent a few months of actual training, while the rest was spent building a business and learning by 'trial and error' one horse at a time. Investing that same 4 years as a full time, paid apprentice, learning directly from an experienced craftsman, should produce a farrier that is vastly more skilled in every area of farriery.

Yes, I understand that everyone has different limits on their skill, but given 4 years of intensive training, it's hard to imagine anyone not being able to deliver an exceptional level of quality.

Just out of curiosity, how much, on average, do first year apprentices earn in Ireland? Is it a 'living' wage?

Cheers,
Mark

Government regulation doesn't insure quality. Education doesn't even insure quality. Over the years I worked with many highly educated engineers, managers and all manor of professionals who weren't any good at their job.
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RE:Justifying your "high prices?" 26 Apr 2010 15:05 #19

  • Mike Ferrara
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Gary,

The price of a product or sevice has little to do with what ot costs to provide. It's determined by what the market will bear.

"Because I can."..is a fine answer.
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RE:Justifying your "high prices?" 26 Apr 2010 15:18 #20

  • smitty88
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Mark_Gough wrote:
John, your comment about 'good and bad work' is a puzzle to me. There is no training or licensing requirement in the states so the range of quality (or lack thereof) is huge.

I have a hard time understanding how farriers in your area that are required to complete a school plus four years of formal apprenticeship and state licensing exams can be anything less than exceptional in almost every aspect of their work.

The work you have posted by your first year apprentices is typically far better than most of the work I see done around this area, including my own. Still, I have seen photos of work done in Great Britain that appears very poor. I don't understand how that can happen given the rigorous training and testing requirements.

It's easy to understand how 4 or 5 years here may not produce a quality farrier. That time may only represent a few months of actual training, while the rest was spent building a business and learning by 'trial and error' one horse at a time. Investing that same 4 years as a full time, paid apprentice, learning directly from an experienced craftsman, should produce a farrier that is vastly more skilled in every area of farriery.

Yes, I understand that everyone has different limits on their skill, but given 4 years of intensive training, it's hard to imagine anyone not being able to deliver an exceptional level of quality.

Just out of curiosity, how much, on average, do first year apprentices earn in Ireland? Is it a 'living' wage?

Cheers,
Mark

Mark,
not everybody in Ireland went through the app thing
and some masters that have app dont give them the training in every department

its all down to the master if he wants to put the time in

i know men that are qualifed that IMO dont shoe well
in a every day situation

im sure there are cf and cjf that do poor work everyday
1st year app can get 200-250 a week
Smitty88
John Mc Loughlin
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RE:Justifying your "high prices?" 26 Apr 2010 15:20 #21

I shod a lot of great horses and a lot of them well known. So it got to a point where people would not call me because the buzz was I charged 4 times as much as the average shoer. I don't :cool:

It was a pain though, I still think I would have been able to cut down on the travelling a lot earlier if this rumour had not travelled so fast.


Ronald Aalders
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RE:Justifying your "high prices?" 26 Apr 2010 23:15 #22

  • shane.ire
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smitty88 wrote:
Mark,
not everybody in Ireland went through the app thing
and some masters that have app dont give them the training in every department

its all down to the master if he wants to put the time in

i know men that are qualifed that IMO dont shoe well
in a every day situation


you can say that again , i find if some one askes wot you charge then theyr not worth having as a client as how much you charge is more important than how good you are. if someone says im expencive is say "if you pay peanuts you get monkeys " .
i try to educate people on shoeing so they can see the benifits of good shoeing. once people realise how much better there horses hoofs ar then there happy to pay .
i had a client who moved an hour and a haf away , got a new farrier as i didnt work in that area and after a wile after being educated by me on how her horses feet should look realised that her horses hoofs were getting bad and asked her new farrier if there was anyting he could do to fix them , he told her he was the farrier and not to tell him how to do his job. so she rang me and said name your price my horses feet are too important to put up with that s.it. i now go to that area and get well paid for my time.

shane byrne:):)
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RE:Justifying your "high prices?" 26 Apr 2010 23:24 #23

shane.ire wrote:


"if you pay peanuts you get monkeys " .

shane byrne:):)


What a great thing to say! I'm going to use this a lot!
George Spear
CNBBT, CNBF, CLS


".....and I said to the horse: Trust no man in whose eyes you do not see yourself reflected as an equal."
Don Vincenzo Giobbe
CA. 1700

"What people do not appreciate is that every time a horse submits to...
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RE:Justifying your "high prices?" 26 Apr 2010 23:30 #24

  • shane.ire
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ye i find it shuts people up who ar more interested in wot you charge rather than how good you are.

shane byrne:):)
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RE:Justifying your "high prices?" 26 Apr 2010 23:39 #25

  • Jack Evers
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I just tell people that " if you're looking for the cheapest guy in th county, I don't want to be him".
Jack Evers CJF AFA#426

The best things about the good old days -- I wasn't good and I wasn't old.

The older I get, the more horses I shoe, the fewer things that I can absolutely, positively fix.
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RE:Justifying your "high prices?" 27 Apr 2010 02:33 #26

  • J.H. shoeing
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I just charge what ever makes me feel good.:rolleyes:

Sometimes I leave them thinking "Oh my" and trying to catch thier breath, and sometimes you can see the relief in thier eyes.

I really only want to shoe a couple of cripples a day and make a living. But it doesn't always work out.

I know someone will post about how I shouldn't be that way but they aren't riding these things to the grocery store.

They are loading them in 100K+ trailers under 60K-120K trucks.

And someone has to pay for my deer hunting and whiskey.
Jeff Holder

Some people are like Slinky’s, pretty much useless but make you smile when you push them down the stairs.
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RE:Justifying your "high prices?" 27 Apr 2010 02:53 #27

  • solidrockshoer
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J.H. shoeing wrote:
I know someone will post about how I shouldn't be that way but they aren't riding these things to the grocery store.

They are loading them in 100K+ trailers under 60K-120K trucks.

And someone has to pay for my deer hunting and whiskey.


Only the jealous one!
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RE:Justifying your "high prices?" 27 Apr 2010 02:54 #28

  • Gary Hill
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J.H. shoeing wrote:
I just charge what ever makes me feel good.:rolleyes:

Sometimes I leave them thinking "Oh my" and trying to catch thier breath, and sometimes you can see the relief in thier eyes.

I really only want to shoe a couple of cripples a day and make a living. But it doesn't always work out.

I know someone will post about how I shouldn't be that way but they aren't riding these things to the grocery store.

They are loading them in 100K+ trailers under 60K-120K trucks.

And someone has to pay for my deer hunting and whiskey.

Jeffy, I like the way you think! Glad to hear from ya again, thought they had you on Highway Patrol too long?:D
"As I see it, winners get the money - while losers talk of "individual goals" and similar stuff." Tom Stovall
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RE:Justifying your "high prices?" 27 Apr 2010 19:33 #29

  • Dan Puckett
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Thanks guys. I had figured and thought about the same things everyone said, to one extent or another. I sat down right after school (maybe while I was still in school), figured up my operating costs- bar stock, nails, rasps, forging tools, truck operating expenses, insurance, etc, etc. I think I came up with $35 or $38, based on <25mi travel. So, I explain to other (sober) people, that if I charge much less than I do, I may as well make the truck driving full time, and not run quite the risk of getting hurt.

My problem is, I havent seen too many other farriers' work the day or week the work was done; I dont feel I can adequately judge another guy's work 8-12weeks after it was done, other than extremely low nail height (I've made more than one person nervous by nailing higher than the locals, but still never more than halfway up the wall) and dubbed toe, until I pull the shoe, trim the foot, and see how it fits.

It's also nice to see the cheapskate-itis not being confined to SE MO. We do seem to have more than our fair share, though.

Travelling with my mentor to some of the barns he goes to, or rather, some of the loaded people he shoes for (in their nice personal barns), I have noticed the bigger their bank accounts, the tighter they often are. I've shod/ trimmed for people who I know were struggling, and should have gotten rid of the horse, gladly pay me locally-top-dollar to take care of their horses. Then you get the guy with the $60K pickup, pulls out a wad of Ben Franklins, want to pay me $50 a head.:rolleyes:
Dan Puckett, CF
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RE:Justifying your &quot;high prices?&quot; 28 Apr 2010 01:54 #30

  • RiversideBoy
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I think another saying could be "Supply and Demand-I'm selling my back, and the older I get the less there is to sell".
Eli Smith
Farrier:)
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