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TOPIC: The Mirage of the Natural Foot

RE:The Mirage of the Natural Foot 23 Jun 2010 01:38 #361

Jack Evers wrote:
Four per cent is more or less the key. Some folks think that's worth arguing about, some think that it's insignificant. You're right Denise, it's fork time.

Jack E,

"I love you man".:D:D Good conclusion to what was getting over done.

Regards
Rick Shepherd

Although we know what we believe, we may only believe what we know. Dr William Moyers
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RE:The Mirage of the Natural Foot 23 Jun 2010 14:12 #362

  • Jack Evers
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Quite interesting graph, Denise, but only part of the answer. A change in velocity is due to a force acting over time period. Here is the time period, but not the force, so it doesn't define muscle effort. Ten pounds force over ten nano seconds gives the same effect as one pound force over 100 ns.

I'd like to see the graph for legs acting in unison, trot, pace or the non leading fore and leading hind at a canter, not the gallop.
Jack Evers CJF AFA#426

The best things about the good old days -- I wasn't good and I wasn't old.

The older I get, the more horses I shoe, the fewer things that I can absolutely, positively fix.
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RE:The Mirage of the Natural Foot 24 Jun 2010 13:25 #363

  • Jack Evers
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The graph was a right lead canter

Somehow, I gotten right lead gallop into my feeble brain. If we look at the analogy of a weight on top of a straight extended leg being carried forward by inertia (muscle power not in play), as long as the foot is ahead of vertical it will serve as a brake. The weight will be slowing down, but elevating. Trading forward kinetic energy for position energy. As the weight passes over the foot, the reverse will happen. The weight will start to fall and be accelerated (propelled) forward.This is pure conservation of energy W/O any new muscle energy being supplied. More true of a stiff front leg than a hind leg.

The data show this. The leading legs which spend more stride time with the foot ahead of vertical show more braking time and less propulsion time. Unfortunately, W/O the forces we don't know how much the muscles are playing into the equation. The non leading front shows almost equal propulsion and braking which would be true of a symmetrical inverted pendulum placement, while the non leading hind shows only a small amount of braking suggesting that the muscles kick in early in the stride. The leading hind, which is acting in unison with the non leading front shows a more balanced braking/propulsion.
Jack Evers CJF AFA#426

The best things about the good old days -- I wasn't good and I wasn't old.

The older I get, the more horses I shoe, the fewer things that I can absolutely, positively fix.
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RE:The Mirage of the Natural Foot 04 Jul 2010 04:39 #364

  • jack-mac
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KarenStandefer wrote:
Jack,

It would help me tremendously to understand your argument if you could describe what is occurring in each of the frames above with regard to forward motion.

Thanks in advance,
Well after my holiday I'm tad reluctant :mad: so I wont be handing out Gold, but I will throw you all some table scraps , there are 16 stills, in those still photos you will note that there are 3 were the horse has no feet on the ground (hang time) & anther 4 were the front limbs are still not making contact with the ground , the fastest time for a horse in the world over a 1/4 mile that I'm aware of is 69.60534 kph that equates to 19.3348 meters per second, if you equate g=9.8m/s2 to those 7 frames then your answer is quite clear the front limbs have to power just as the hinds do.
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RE:The Mirage of the Natural Foot 04 Jul 2010 22:24 #365

jack-mac wrote:
Well after my holiday I'm tad reluctant :mad: so I wont be handing out Gold, but I will throw you all some table scraps , there are 16 stills, in those still photos you will note that there are 3 were the horse has no feet on the ground (hang time) & anther 4 were the front limbs are still not making contact with the ground , the fastest time for a horse in the world over a 1/4 mile that I'm aware of is 69.60534 kph that equates to 19.3348 meters per second, if you equate g=9.8m/s2 to those 7 frames then your answer is quite clear the front limbs have to power just as the hinds do.

he's right, so can we all have some peace on this.:o
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RE:The Mirage of the Natural Foot 06 Jul 2010 21:07 #366

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ladyblacksmith wrote:
he's right...

"Objection your honor! The witness is speculating."

"Sustained."

Please describe for us the kinematics involved equating the differentiation of roles of the front vs. hinds simply by stating the gravitational constant and offering a few random, simplistic conversions of velocity. Anything falling about an axis will add a modicum of acceleration to the system, the issue is whether or not the musculature of the front limbs are actively propelling the animal...which, until an ECG, or something similar that can measure strength of contractions, is attached to those muscles at speed, or you can do an in vivo histology of the calcium pumps we can just continue to speculate. Perhaps you can be the one to clear it all up for us with the piece de resistance...or were you just cheerleading?
Scruggs Farrier Service
John Scruggs, CJF
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RE:The Mirage of the Natural Foot 07 Jul 2010 01:32 #367

  • Rick Talbert
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scruggs1 wrote:
"Objection your honor! The witness is speculating."

"Sustained."

Please describe for us the kinematics involved equating the differentiation of roles of the front vs. hinds simply by stating the gravitational constant and offering a few random, simplistic conversions of velocity. Anything falling about an axis will add a modicum of acceleration to the system, the issue is whether or not the musculature of the front limbs are actively propelling the animal...which, until an ECG, or something similar that can measure strength of contractions, is attached to those muscles at speed, or you can do an in vivo histology of the calcium pumps we can just continue to speculate. Perhaps you can be the one to clear it all up for us with the piece de resistance...or were you just cheerleading?

These kind of questions made me drop outa college, :)
Rick Talbert
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RE:The Mirage of the Natural Foot 07 Jul 2010 09:03 #368

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scruggs1 wrote:
"Objection your honor! The witness is speculating."

"Sustained."

Please describe for us the kinematics involved equating the differentiation of roles of the front vs. hinds simply by stating the gravitational constant and offering a few random, simplistic conversions of velocity. Anything falling about an axis will add a modicum of acceleration to the system, the issue is whether or not the musculature of the front limbs are actively propelling the animal...which, until an ECG, or something similar that can measure strength of contractions, is attached to those muscles at speed, or you can do an in vivo histology of the calcium pumps we can just continue to speculate. Perhaps you can be the one to clear it all up for us with the piece de resistance...or were you just cheerleading?
There's no speculation about it,& only a fool would make the statement a few simplistic conversions is speculation ,when its as plain as night & day to any joker that made it past grade one. Which muscles are you wishing to hook up to a ECG considering you & your bud Jaye haven't a clue which group of muscles are involved in the first place ,if you & your buds Jaye & Tom wish to carry on fantasising over baloney theory that's nonsense, that your prerogative & my prerogative will be not giving those I haven't the time of day for a Free launch on the topic ,goad away ;)
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RE:The Mirage of the Natural Foot 07 Jul 2010 09:48 #369

jack-mac wrote:
There's no speculation about it,& only a fool would make the statement a few simplistic conversions is speculation ,when its as plain as night & day to any joker that made it past grade one. Which muscles are you wishing to hook up to a ECG considering you & your bud Jaye haven't a clue which group of muscles are involved in the first place ,if you & your buds Jaye & Tom wish to carry on fantasising over baloney theory that's nonsense, that your prerogative & my prerogative will be not giving those I haven't the time of day for a Free launch on the topic ,goad away ;)

well ladeda cleaning the scupper supper racin' them bumper cars round and round and the front feet can't be beat as I sit here in my seat typin them run on sentences about the rear feet and hind limbs bein about propellin the horsie forward and the front feet bein about mostly support tip of my hat to ya sport gotta rub on the gort if ima going to get any sort or response to this post if I got the chance of a ghost of bein making any sense my horse pulled a shoe offin the fence and now I cant get the farrier out to tack it back on am I makin any kinda sense ifin you spent a pence for my thoughts maybe you out to get your money back cause OMG ima startin to write like old jack mac.
George Spear
CNBBT, CNBF, CLS


".....and I said to the horse: Trust no man in whose eyes you do not see yourself reflected as an equal."
Don Vincenzo Giobbe
CA. 1700

"What people do not appreciate is that every time a horse submits to...
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RE:The Mirage of the Natural Foot 07 Jul 2010 09:50 #370

  • chris bunting
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when in doubt bring in the big words and complicated statements
chris
common sense is not needed when you have rules
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RE:The Mirage of the Natural Foot 07 Jul 2010 10:06 #371

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Dances with Hooves wrote:
well ladeda cleaning the scupper supper racin' them bumper cars round and round and the front feet can't be beat as I sit here in my seat typin them run on sentences about the rear feet and hind limbs bein about propellin the horsie forward and the front feet bein about mostly support tip of my hat to ya sport gotta rub on the gort if ima going to get any sort or response to this post if I got the chance of a ghost of bein making any sense my horse pulled a shoe offin the fence and now I cant get the farrier out to tack it back on am I makin any kinda sense ifin you spent a pence for my thoughts maybe you out to get your money back cause OMG ima startin to write like old jack mac.
Iv only got one thing to say to that,lets see your shoeing DH , its a good opportunity for you to put me in my place :)
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RE:The Mirage of the Natural Foot 07 Jul 2010 10:28 #372

  • Jaye Perry
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jack-mac wrote:
Iv only got one thing to say to that,lets see your shoeing DH , its a good opportunity for you to put me in my place :)

I thought you were "always" in the "Dunny"!:eek:
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RE:The Mirage of the Natural Foot 07 Jul 2010 11:00 #373

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Jaye Perry;206064 wrote:
I thought you were "always" in the "Dunny"!:eek:
Hey Mr Perry how does a horse gallop & then jump ?why back legs & inertia my boy inertia!!!! LMFAO
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RE:The Mirage of the Natural Foot 07 Jul 2010 11:03 #374

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jack-mac wrote:
Jaye Perry wrote:
I thought you were "always" in the "Dunny"!:eek:
Hey Mr Perry how does a horse gallop & then jump, back legs & inertia my boy inertia!!!! LMFAO

Another delightful insight from the "Dunny Man"!:cool:
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RE:The Mirage of the Natural Foot 07 Jul 2010 11:06 #375

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this constant patronising is boring
chris
common sense is not needed when you have rules
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